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Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

economist.com

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Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#101

Post by bgdam »

wink wrote: post #80
bgdam wrote: post #26

As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), I've recommended every single person asking if they should move from India to Germany to not to. The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime. If you're in the higher earning bracket in India, then you get these there itself. So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Every single thing is so ob…

> And then there's the wait time for everything. Appointment for visa extension: 8 months. Driving license conversion: 1 year. German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show, and if I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat. I don't want to downplay any…

> I don't want to downplay any of this and I mostly agree with your points, but as a German the only "related" things I have to do is renew my ID and passport every 10 years and I've never had to wait such a long time (I think we're due to a change in our driving licenses, but that's one time, and I've not touched mine since I got it over 20 years ago).

Exactly. This is precisely my point. Germans don't realize that there are such big problems for immigrants because they don't go through any of it. And immigrants can't vote, and those who can vote don't face the problem so then problem never gets fixed.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#102

Post by coffe2mug »

bgdam wrote: post #42
wklm wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your case is a classic example of sunk cost fallacy

Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here.

> Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here.

Hope, you will come back and report here and guide Indians/expats... If it is better/worse elsewhere.

(As some Indian living in EU for about 30 years - it won't be better. What you are expecting is Ambani level treatment. Then become one )

> And this is where the fallacy is. Indian salaries are currently actually higher than German ones for my role. And that's without even accounting for PPP.

I often meet people like this in many Indian restaurants - everyone brags but even after 20 years they never go out of Germany.

If this level of greatness is true then why are you here? I can even tell you that even at this level of richness you won't

- get the clean/non-flickering electricity in India that one gets in Germany

- Even Abdulkalam got stuck in traffic.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#103

Post by coffe2mug »

cinntaile wrote: post #86
pluijzer wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I hope you can show these countries a little bit more respect than the country that provided you with the ability to get very well paid, got you clean are and safety from crime.

What is disrespectful about voicing his opinion on things that he considers broken or in need of much improvement? It is entirely possible that German people are too complacent or privileged to see all the issues that he mentions.

> thread with genuine complaints will be drowned in responses from native Germans who foolishly believe that Germany is a great country to live in because t

This is disrespect.

Complaining the system is OK but not attacking people.

Assume some one just says "All native Indian men are involved in harassing women/girls (incl. r-a-p.e)"

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#104

Post by wink »

mitjam wrote: post #91

For context: This refers to an Economist special published in 1999 ("The sick man of the euro") which fuelled a public discourse in Germany on what needs to be improved leading up to the labor market reforms under chancellor Schröder ("Hartz IV" etc.). This fixed the most imminent problem of the time (high unemployment rate, inflexible labor market) and led to a stronger economic period in Germany. This time, the und…

> little room left for other broad social discourses in Germany, at the moment

Now you can call me a pessimist, but if we look back at the last 2 decades, did any social discourse really bring out anything positive?

The right-wing politicians are gaining more platform and more supporters, even the so-called social democrats brought us things like Hartz IV, the populists are always at work to call in less taxation for rich people by lying to poorer und uneducated people "they want to increase taxes! You'd get 10€ less per month!" while failing to admit they would maybe get 1000€ or 10k€ less per month)

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#105

Post by PurpleRamen »

the_common_man wrote: post #6

> Germany has liberalised its immigration rules, but the visa process is still glacial and the system favours refugees over professionals who might want to settle in the country. A big issue for professionals to move is they have to learn German.

Depends on the job and region you will live. If you speak English, you can work it out in big cities with little to know knowledge about German language. But overall, needing to learn the local language is generally true for every country which does not speak your native language. So It's not like Germany is a big exception here.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#106

Post by babaguru »

bgdam wrote: post #26

As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), I've recommended every single person asking if they should move from India to Germany to not to. The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime. If you're in the higher earning bracket in India, then you get these there itself. So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Every single thing is so ob…

I'm an immigrant in India. There is curry everywhere. Everybody eats it, everybody smells like it. I hate curry. The smell, the taste, I could vomit every time. But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Indians think this is all acceptable and okay. If I hadn't already invested so much time, money and energy into this god forsaken country, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#107

Post by prasoonds »

prisoner3986 wrote: post #32
the_common_man wrote: post #6

> Germany has liberalised its immigration rules, but the visa process is still glacial and the system favours refugees over professionals who might want to settle in the country. A big issue for professionals to move is they have to learn German.

Uh hu big thing. Hint: if you want to live in a different country, you should at least try to somewhat adapt the official language spoken, and also somewhat have a sweet spot for its culture. Otherwise, you are mostly just coming for economic reasons, and countries don't need that. As someone else complained beforehand: the public health system is already strained, the influx of illegals, refugees and other immigrant…

> you are mostly just coming for economic reasons, and countries don't need that.

On the contrary, that is _precisely_ what Germany needs if you are to sustain the bloated bureaucracy and the pensions.

As another comment pointed out, the best kind of immigrant is the one who pays really high taxes and social contributions and doesn't use up any benefits. That means young people with no families in high paying jobs. They don't get sick, don't use the kitas/schools, don't need to get paid kindergeld (money that parents get per child), are not married so have much higher taxable income (on average, because of Ehegattensplitting), pay into the pension system from which they will almost certainly get back far less (if at all) than what they pay in, usually live in big cities so they don't drive and therefore have significantly less impact on marginal infrastructure costs and drive up demand and pay into the local services economy.

Also, if it is difficult for such immigrants to assimilate and naturalize, they will often just pack up and leave, having contributed to (but never using) the various social systems.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#108

Post by wink »

n_ary wrote: post #24
orwin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my experience in Munich, but French are quite 'rude' too compared to southern Europeans and Anglos, so I would understand why people would think so.

Using Munich, a city entirely non-representative of the rest of the country is a bad idea. Munich in my experience feels like a modern post—current Germany entirely.

Now I'm curious how you think it is non-representative?

If we're going off waiting times for government stuff it seems to be 10x better than Berlin but 3x worse than any small town where I have friends.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#109

Post by PurpleRamen »

jeroenvlek wrote: post #13
mildmotive wrote: post #8

> Added to this are worsening geopolitics, the difficulty of eliminating carbon emissions and the travails of an ageing population. Worsening geopolitics and an ageing population are more immideate problem compared to the inability to eliminate (not reduce) carbon emissions. Or am I missing something? Can someone explain to me why ”eliminating carbon emissions” was sandwiched between the other two issues?

I suspect because of the also mentioned "own goal" of eliminating nuclear power despite not having green alternatives.

Germany has more than enough alternatives for nuclear power. The situation would have been even better if not for some brain farts sabotaging the movement to alternatives for various reasons.

The big problem is that has Germany has big dependencies on coal, gas and gasoline, for industry, heating, and cars. Nuclear power can't replace this at all. Which is why Germany is shifting around usages and started investing big in hydrogen.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#110

Post by bgdam »

coffe2mug wrote: post #102
bgdam wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here.

> Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll get an EU passport next year. Oops scratch that the wait for naturalization is now upto two years. So I'll get an EU passport in 3 years, and then the right to be able to move to any of 27 countries at my discretion will more than make up for this time and energy I've spent here. Hope, you will come back and report here and guide Indians/expats... If it is better/worse elsewhere. (As some…

Lol, expecting your residence permit to not take 9 months to get renewed is Ambani level privilege? Expecting to get a doctor's appointment in a couple of weeks is privilege?

> If this level of greatness is true then why are you here? I can even tell you that even at this level of richness you won't

Believe it or not, it is true. You get paid more in India if you're an experienced and capable software dev than you do in Germany (unless you're employed by FAANG in Germany). As for why I don't do it - because even though I bitch about the bureaucracy and broken infrastructure, there are a billion other things that I love about Germany.

However just because I love a lot of things about Germany, doesn't mean I shouldn't criticize those things that are horribly broken - esp. when the politicians show no signs of wanting to fix them.

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