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Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

economist.com

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Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#91

Post by mitjam »

For context: This refers to an Economist special published in 1999 ("The sick man of the euro") which fuelled a public discourse in Germany on what needs to be improved leading up to the labor market reforms under chancellor Schröder ("Hartz IV" etc.). This fixed the most imminent problem of the time (high unemployment rate, inflexible labor market) and led to a stronger economic period in Germany.

This time, the underlying problems are probably much harder to tackle:

1. Germany's economic model depends on high worker productivity, strong education, cheap energy (still large industry base). All of these have structural weaknesses.

2. The public discourse is very much focussed on climate change, allowing little room for other discourses. Don't get me wrong: I believe the climate change discourse is globally the most important discourse of our time; it is just that there is little room left for other broad social discourses in Germany, at the moment.

3. No immediate pressure comparable to the high unemployment rate at the time. The German economy is getting comparably weaker, slowly but steadily. (Boiling frog problem)

That the economy is getting weaker, is eg. visible in GDP constant prices growth rate stats. It is yet not as severe as last time (between 2003 and 2006, Germany was last in G7, even behind Japan, and Italy with base year 1999), but the gap between the best performing G7 countries (US, Canada), number 3 (UK) and Germany is widening. Since 2017 Germany has fallen behind France, too (except in 2020). (see https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/weo-database/2023/Ap...)

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#92

Post by bgdam »

sony22 wrote: post #78
bgdam wrote: post #26

As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), I've recommended every single person asking if they should move from India to Germany to not to. The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime. If you're in the higher earning bracket in India, then you get these there itself. So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Every single thing is so ob…

I am not a german but from India. while there is lack of digitialisation but most things work fine > So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Seriously then leave the country. > Germany will stay as it is for ever - there is no need to change in their view. You are attacking Germans. - Million rules exist and if followed then it works smoothly. - I know vast majority of Indians think bure…

> - Million rules exist and if followed then it works smoothly.

They don't cover all possible scenarios. Unless you are stuck in the no mans land things seem to work well for you. If instead Beamten were given the autonomy to make certain decisions not strictly by the rule book then this wouldn't be a problem.

> - I know vast majority of Indians think bureaucracy works like India

I don't expect it to work like in India. I just expect it to work in a reasonable amount of time.

> - Assuming you are from wealthy background or software or doctor etc. They expect minimal paperwork and want the German bureaucrats to skip things. Why? because they are entitled.

Where have I ever mentioned that I want things to be skipped? And minimal paperwork is not just expected by wealthy people - it's expected by everyone. Compare Germany's bureacracy with Netherlands or Swedens and there is a giant difference, primarily because most of the paperwork is minimized to bare necessities. Just because something worked when it was invented, doesn't mean it has to be stuck to when it's now causing a lot of pain needlessly.

> - The rules are very clearly laid out. Too often people from India fill up forms like

Again not sure where you got this from anything I said. I was only complaining about time taken and inflexibility of bureaucracy.

> - If you complain so much about German bureaucrats try to get your passport or any documents (like attestation) from Indian Consulate/Embassy. Unless you have power/connections etc. they delay it EVEN when you give all papers. Look all the ridiculous docx or PDF with one small line for complete address in embassy website. More over if you dont speak Hindi it is PITA.

Whataboutism.

> - Language: it is painful. But why not learn? (Given the fact Govt of India wants Southern people to learn Hindi - why dont you learn German)

I'm beginning to think you intended to reply to someone else. I never mentioned not speaking German as a problem. If you move to a country and live there, you should learn the local language.

> I call BS. How many helicopters are available for you in India for the €100 - €200 you pay in Germany.

Okay that was exaggerating for effect. But the point stands - If I paid 300Eur a month for health insurance in India I would be given the VIP treatment if I ever had to step into a hospital.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#93

Post by bgdam »

Semaphor wrote: post #69
bgdam wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you don't face the problem personally you don't voice out against it? You do realize how cause and effect works right? If you don't voice out and change the system this is what happens: 1. More and more immigrants stop coming to Germany. 2. Taxes and Pensions dry up. 3. Already stressed and broken infrastructure can no longer be maintained thanks to lack of funds. 4. Your quality of life (that of the guy who ne…

Love people like you, move right towards insulting others. Maybe that’s why you have those issues. Not even going to bother arguing with people like you.

Sorry where was the insulting? You responded saying you won't fight against things that don't personally affect you, and I pointed out how things you don't think personally affect you will eventually affect you.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#94

Post by wink »

littlecranky67 wrote: post #63

I'm currently in the process of moving my business (one-man show, incorporated LLC doing IT/SW Eng.) out of Germany. The amount of bureaucracy running even the smallest of companies with no office at all (work out of home) is hilarious. So much you need to get an accountant/tax advisor, but even then they will pass-through a lot of the bureaucracy. I need to put down excel sheets for every day of a business trip I do…

Hmm, this does not match my experience (but it's been a while). I'm not saying it's been great but maybe it's because I didn't file a single business trip or hotel stay. FWIW I also have to file those now as you described as an employee, so while it's not helping that is not unique to running a business :P

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#95

Post by bgdam »

sony22 wrote: post #87
bgdam wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes. Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country - because they're the one's who pay the high taxes. Do you think Germany is throwing open their doors for the underprivileged folk…

> So what, I should kow tow to a broken system and praise it? No thanks. People and countries should be able to take criticism. Also, just because I complain about everything that is bad doesn't mean that there is nothing good. It's just that none of them apply to a thread about Germany's dire immigration situation. You don't kow tow have to but never attack a group of people like "They will never change". Looking at…

> You don't kow tow have to but never attack a group of people like "They will never change".

This is my view formed after living in Germany for the better part of a decade and seeing multiple Governments push back modernization projects and allocate the budget intended for them to populist people pleasing measures - and then seeing a lot of Germans agree with these measures. It's also formed from a lot of discussion on the /r/german subreddit and with Germans I know personally of varying age groups - most of them do not believe these are big problems or that substantial effort has to be put into to change them.

> Even incl. racism.

I don't want to talk about this as it is off-topic for the post, but racism is alive and very healthy in Germany. It's just not as "in-your-face" as in other countries which are generally thought of as having "racism problems".

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#96

Post by iiiieu »

bgdam wrote: post #26

As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes), I've recommended every single person asking if they should move from India to Germany to not to. The only upgrade is in cleaner air to breathe and safety from crime. If you're in the higher earning bracket in India, then you get these there itself. So then moving to Germany from India is like stepping back into 1996. Every single thing is so ob…

> As an immigrant (and a very well paid one paying obnoxiously high taxes),

Public services cost money. Relative to contributions to society (if you compare to the lady in the supermarket or the immigrant guy cleaning the toilets), SWE pay is what is obnoxiously high.

Sure the paperwork and bureaucracy is annoying. But India isn't exactly known for shining in this regard. At least the corruption in the public sector is magnitudes less in Germany compared to India. Things may be slow, but not because you didn't pay up, but because they are just ... slow.

The slowness has advantages too. The right wing guys will have a harder time taking over because everything is so slow. (Fingers crossed)

> German exam: 5 months. What, you want the results for your exam also? Better wait another year then. Honestly Germany is a shit show,

It's a "shit show" because you need to wait for a while for your language exam results? Your priorities are odd. There are a few thousand things higher up on my personal priority list. What about corruption? Environment? Safety? Health care? Pension? Child care? Just sitting in a street café having a latte, reading a book, watching birds sing and kids play near by, all in central Berlin, all while being safe, breathing clean air and not hearing a 7-lane highway?

> But the worst part of all this is - the vast majority of Germans think this is all acceptable and okay.

So, why is this bad then? A society that is happy with how things work, that's the dream state, right? If you immigrated there and don't like it, well, you seem to be in the minority. Perhaps choose a place that's more to your liking then.

(I'm neither a citizen nor a resident in Germany.)

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#97

Post by wink »

probably_wrong wrote: post #40

As a foreigner living in Germany for the best part of a decade, I tend to agree with the article that the situation is not dire but, at the same time, it does need work. The train situation is a good starting point: an industry that used to be great and has been in slow decline for years without anyone doing anything other than shrugging and saying "well, that's how it is" or "yeah, but we are still better than X". I…

The train discussion is often interesting with people who have lived somewhere where trains/public transport is spotty at best or nonexisting.

Sure, it's nice to be able to take a train, but if my experience is that I'm never on time and also not sure if it will start or arrive at all, what good does it do? I don't want to miss my flight in another city, so am I gonna take the train? Or the one before that? Oh, I was taking the first one of the day, that's bad luck.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#98

Post by bgdam »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #79
bgdam wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes. Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country - because they're the one's who pay the high taxes. Do you think Germany is throwing open their doors for the underprivileged folk…

sounds like you miss your servants which happen to be a little too expensive for you here ... and you even have to treat them respectful. what a bummer

Way to assume. I love how literally everyone who criticizes Germany about being slow and inefficient is assumed to come from a place of privilege. If I missed by "servants" I'd be complaining about separating my garbage and having to make multiple trips to the recyclehof, not about bureaucracy sucking the life out of people.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#99

Post by _19qg »

bgdam wrote: post #75
rockyj wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is just your experience. You say as if things in India are all bed of roses. No major city in India (forget small towns) can boast of breathable air, manageable traffic, potable water from the tap or 24 hours of electricity. Women's safety - lol. Finding a place where there is a clean lake or some non-polluted piece of nature - forget that in North India. Not to mention as a minority, who knows when you can be l…

> People come here, reek of privilege, miss their life in India where they had 3 servants for everything and also forget that if they have to go to any government office in India they have to pay bribes. Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country - because they're the one's who pay the high taxes. Do you think Germany is throwing open their doors for the underprivileged folk…

> Unfortunately these are the exact people that Germany wants moving into their country

Germany is already open for work for ALL of the EU member states and associated countries. The EU has a "freedom to move for goods, persons, services and capital" as one of the four principles. That means EVERYONE of the EU, who can afford the life in Germany, could move here.

Additionally we have people coming from other countries, incl. India on visas: students, workers, ... plus Germany currently hosts around 1 million persons from the Ukraine, because of the war.

> because they're the one's who pay the high taxes.

Germany needs workers in many professions: construction workers, in agriculture, nurses, software developers, ...

They come from the EU and from outside the EU. For EU citizens its relatively easy to move to other countries. The EU also made it easy for people from the Ukraine, to help the war refugees.

Re: Is Germany once again the sick man of Europe?

#100

Post by littlecranky67 »

wink wrote: post #94
littlecranky67 wrote: post #63

I'm currently in the process of moving my business (one-man show, incorporated LLC doing IT/SW Eng.) out of Germany. The amount of bureaucracy running even the smallest of companies with no office at all (work out of home) is hilarious. So much you need to get an accountant/tax advisor, but even then they will pass-through a lot of the bureaucracy. I need to put down excel sheets for every day of a business trip I do…

Hmm, this does not match my experience (but it's been a while). I'm not saying it's been great but maybe it's because I didn't file a single business trip or hotel stay. FWIW I also have to file those now as you described as an employee, so while it's not helping that is not unique to running a business :P

You have to file those as an employee just because your employer has to do the same beauraucracy. Sounds in the end you stopped doing business :P

There is tons of examples where a solo-enterpreneur is drowned in these regulations (corporate car or even e-bike (!), calculation of privateley used square meter space in the homeoffice, separation of heating cost for your home office etc.). Don't even get me started about the beaurocracy hell if I had employees, there are so many regulations and rules.

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