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Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

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Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#61

Post by api »

some_random wrote: post #51
kstrauser wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s goofy. I’m not a cDc member, but I was online and actively building networks and network apps on the early public Internet before most people. I’m not thrilled that RWNJs are using some of the things my friends and I helped make, but that’s better than a world where someone can dictate that they’re not allowed to. Today I run a Mastodon server. Neo-Nazis can deploy their own, too. Again, I wish they wouldn’t,…

I'd love it if they stayed out of Veilid too, but if Veilid succeeds they will not. The needs of pro-democracy, pro-human rights protesters are very similar to the needs of hate groups, it sucks but it's true.

Both also breathe oxygen.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#62

Post by nullc »

No comparison with freenet?

DHT's are normally very vulnerable to DOS attack, and the known techniques to harden them tend to hurt other properties yet I don't see any details on how DOS is mitigated even to the level freenet does (and freenet's mitigations are expensive indeed).

Probably no anonymous file storage system can really go without a discussion regarding strict liability for the possession of some kinds of unlawful content. (E.g. Freenet makes an effort so that the operator of a node storing a piece of data won't have the ability to decode it themselves.) Probably any modern system of this type ought to consider the ability for attackers to intentionally store illegal data in order to defame the system and users of the system and force them to shut down as a relevant attack in their attack model.

Odd to see no (at least) ephemeral PQ crypto for a protocol being developed now or a rational for why its missing. Perhaps PQ for the data at rest is too costly but it doesn't seem likely that it would be too costly for the P2P communications.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#63

Post by kimmygraham »

some_random wrote: post #55
kstrauser wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, and that’s kind of my point. Vile people will use good things, too. I’m not willing to forego having nice things just because people I loathe might also like them.

That's a very reasonable position to have! I am not confident that CDC holds that position, and if they do I am not confident that they will indefinitely.

Join the discord and like talk to them... They're real human people.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#66

Post by ngc6677 »

kstrauser wrote: post #29
brunoqc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there seem to be a json api: https://gitlab.com/veilid/python-demo/-/blob/103ae2211b452f1...

Yep! The Python API is the first one released, but it’s a wrapper around Veilid’s own JSON API. You can talk to a Veilid node using any language that speaks JSON.

Cool! Thanks for the answer fellas, will look into it!

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#67

Post by Aerbil313 »

api wrote: post #18

I saw this talk at DEFCON. It seems to combine ideas from IPFS, BitTorrent magnet links, Tor, and things like scuttlebutt. There was a very strong focus on privacy including for metadata. The biggest weaknesses I saw were around DOS attack resistance, which I did not see addressed. There were good approaches for privacy and security but what if someone with resources (botnet or money) wants to just burn the network d…

> Completely pure P2P systems are hard to protect against Sybil attacks

I’m happy to report that P2P systems resistant to all kinds of attacks are implemented already. There are many, many solutions in many OS projects. See the technicalities of I2P or Freenet 2023. Safe P2P is possible, although hella hard to get right.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#68

Post by api »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #67
api wrote: post #18

I saw this talk at DEFCON. It seems to combine ideas from IPFS, BitTorrent magnet links, Tor, and things like scuttlebutt. There was a very strong focus on privacy including for metadata. The biggest weaknesses I saw were around DOS attack resistance, which I did not see addressed. There were good approaches for privacy and security but what if someone with resources (botnet or money) wants to just burn the network d…

> Completely pure P2P systems are hard to protect against Sybil attacks I’m happy to report that P2P systems resistant to all kinds of attacks are implemented already. There are many, many solutions in many OS projects. See the technicalities of I2P or Freenet 2023. Safe P2P is possible, although hella hard to get right.

Could these projects actually withstand a really smart adversary with huge resources or are they simply not big enough to get attacked like that?

Think nation states, organized crime, or groups of black hats with huge botnets and a desire to take down a platform to silence someone on it.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#69

Post by Aerbil313 »

api wrote: post #68
Aerbil313 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Completely pure P2P systems are hard to protect against Sybil attacks I’m happy to report that P2P systems resistant to all kinds of attacks are implemented already. There are many, many solutions in many OS projects. See the technicalities of I2P or Freenet 2023. Safe P2P is possible, although hella hard to get right.

Could these projects actually withstand a really smart adversary with huge resources or are they simply not big enough to get attacked like that? Think nation states, organized crime, or groups of black hats with huge botnets and a desire to take down a platform to silence someone on it.

Yes. The protection they have against attacks are not ad hoc. They are based on theory and are scalable. One protection strategy (often seen in web-of-trust arthitectures) is to put trust in the authenticity of the current present machine (idk how to better phrase it). This way it doesn't even matter how much of your network is comprised of bots. Your machine will reject them all.

Re: Veilid is an open-source, P2P, mobile-first, networked application framework

#70

Post by api »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #69
api wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could these projects actually withstand a really smart adversary with huge resources or are they simply not big enough to get attacked like that? Think nation states, organized crime, or groups of black hats with huge botnets and a desire to take down a platform to silence someone on it.

Yes. The protection they have against attacks are not ad hoc. They are based on theory and are scalable. One protection strategy (often seen in web-of-trust arthitectures) is to put trust in the authenticity of the current present machine (idk how to better phrase it). This way it doesn't even matter how much of your network is comprised of bots. Your machine will reject them all.

Doesn't that just increase the amount of time the bots have to remain as "sleepers" to embed themselves in the network before turning evil?
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