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AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

bbc.co.uk

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Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#81

Post by carimura »

kyralis wrote: post #17
Verdex wrote: post #8

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” ― C. S.…

I wouldn't call "requiring drivers to not be using mobile phones" a "tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims". It's for the good of everyone else on the road, and, in the case of seatbelts, for the good of the rest of society that needs to deal with the burden of caring for unnecessary injuries due to failing to take such a basic precaution.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but to me it seems like the quote is in fact talking about "for the good of everyone else".

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#82

Post by carimura »

xnx wrote: post #51
wuliwong wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the good of the rest of society that needs to deal with the burden of caring for unnecessary injuries I understand that point of view but I do think it can be tyrannical to not let people live their lives even if they are making decisions that are bad for their physical health. In the US, obesity is a far greater burden on our health care system than people not wearing seatbelts. I still can't get behind fining peo…

> even if they are making decisions that are bad for their physical health Distracted driving is a risk to other people, obesity is not.

the point is obesity is a risk in a different way because it stresses the healthcare system.

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#83

Post by xethos »

Verdex wrote: post #72
xnx wrote: post #36

Big fan of automated enforcement with human review: red light running, speeding, distracted driving, tailgating, etc. More please!

> red light running This is actually one of the interesting cases. Some studies indicate that while red light cameras reduce the number of red light running, it also increases the amount of rear end collisions. Because people are afraid of getting a ticket they slam on their brakes. Similarly, (iirc) there was some controversy about certain areas with red light cameras adjusting the length of yellow lights not to max…

> Some studies indicate that while red light cameras reduce the number of red light running, it also increases the amount of rear end collisions. Because people are afraid of getting a ticket they slam on their brakes.

Sounds like some motorists received an expensive lesson on the topic of "What is a safe following distance, and why does it matter"

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#84

Post by diydsp »

Verdex wrote: post #72
xnx wrote: post #36

Big fan of automated enforcement with human review: red light running, speeding, distracted driving, tailgating, etc. More please!

> red light running This is actually one of the interesting cases. Some studies indicate that while red light cameras reduce the number of red light running, it also increases the amount of rear end collisions. Because people are afraid of getting a ticket they slam on their brakes. Similarly, (iirc) there was some controversy about certain areas with red light cameras adjusting the length of yellow lights not to max…

> [...] people are afraid of getting a ticket they slam on their brakes.

There should be some kind of warning before the red light comes on.

I've got it! A cell phone app. Whenever you're driving: the app sends your coordinates to the cloud, and every traffic light is also linked in via dirt-cheap IoT. Then, at some point between the light being green and red, the user is warned through a tweet, text, or email message that the red light will go on soon! They can navigate away from the video they were watching while driving, click through the terms of the website, adjust for their privacy preferences, take advantage of any offers that might pop up, and still find out a few seconds before the light turns red!

And then: because we know they'll be stopped at the light and for how long, we can show them a short video offering them valuable products and services right near where they are located! We can do this! Who's in?

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#85

Post by krisoft »

obelos wrote: post #71
elil17 wrote: post #32

I do understand the privacy arguments, but there are thousands of people are being killed by drivers every day (many of whom aren't even in cars, they're walking or biking). Enforcing traffic laws is one of the only tools for fixing this that can be implemented quickly (as opposed to better urban design and public transit, which are better solutions in many other ways). I feel like their should be room to advocate fo…

It's puzzling to me why police need to be involved at all, save for possibly some sort of statutory restriction that ought to be removed. What is it about police's training that makes them uniquely qualified to process these images to determine that there's cause for a citation to be issued? This and other automated street safety tools are very valuable for public safety. But there's no reason these programs couldn't…

> It's puzzling to me why police need to be involved at all

The police: "the civil force of a state, responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the maintenance of public order."

If you gave this task to "transportation department or some such" they become the police. They become the civil force of a state, responsible for the prevention and detection of this specific crime.

Except of course if you boot up a brand new police force just for this task they will bumble around and make all the mistakes while they lean how to you know police.

> a lot of the privacy concerns rightfully stoked by involving the police

What privacy concerns does this raise which are not already raised by the 11,000 other automatic number plate recognition cameras in operation in the UK?

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#86

Post by nvm0n2 »

carimura wrote: post #82
xnx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even if they are making decisions that are bad for their physical health Distracted driving is a risk to other people, obesity is not.

the point is obesity is a risk in a different way because it stresses the healthcare system.

Healthcare systems can scale up to meet the extra demand, and obese people can be asked to pay more for their healthcare. That doesn't apply for phone driving/drunk driving/etc because you can't charge people more based on the risk that someone else might hit them.

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#87

Post by recursive4 »

Verdex wrote: post #8

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” ― C. S.…

Two days ago I was running on a road that lacks sidewalks and was almost hit by a driver who was clearly texting and not paying attention. This is not tyranny for the good of its victims – it's protecting everyone else from a needless lack of care for the safety of others.

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#88

Post by nvm0n2 »

jerf wrote: post #41
Verdex wrote: post #8

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” ― C. S.…

The problem is that laws are an approximation of safety and well being. When laws were all we had, the delta between the laws and the actual thing we want (safety) was not something we spent a lot of time worrying about, because we couldn't detect the difference. The law couldn't be enforced anyhow. The problem is as we get perfect enforcement, the delta does become visible. The reality is that when a road is set to…

I mean sure but they give us rigid enforcement because there's no universal and fair way to define what the "real" limit should be. Limits do get changed dynamically on motorways.

You can argue that with the ever greater digitization of cars there's a way out of that: use AI to monitor road conditions and dynamically adjust the speed limit, where those superseding limits are uploaded to a central server that in-car dashes can download from. As long as the limit only ever goes above the signposted limit, it can work. People with old cars just won't learn when they can go faster (except via smartphone maps).

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#89

Post by mdp2021 »

jfindley wrote: post #43
elil17 wrote: post #32

I do understand the privacy arguments, but there are thousands of people are being killed by drivers every day (many of whom aren't even in cars, they're walking or biking). Enforcing traffic laws is one of the only tools for fixing this that can be implemented quickly (as opposed to better urban design and public transit, which are better solutions in many other ways). I feel like their should be room to advocate fo…

In the UK, where this is happening, that's simply not true. There were 1695 road fatalities in 2022 total. That's very different from "thousands a day". I do not believe it is desirable (or practically possible) to eliminate all risk of death or injury from life, and increasingly orwellian surveillance measures to clamp down on every misdeed and ill advised risk does not, I think, make for a happier or freer society.

> That's very different from "thousands a day"

So you had us check. We hope it is now clear to you that you showed having misunderstood the poster: «thousands of people are being killed by drivers every day» does not imply "here".

But according to data,

( Road deaths over the long-term, 1900 to 2021 // Annual number of reported deaths resultant from any type of road accident. This includesvehicles, pedestrians and cyclists. - https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/road-deaths-over-the-long... )

taking 2019 (just to be sure of having more data), you are partially right: apparently not even half-a-thousand per day. But hundreds per day.

Top by Country: China: 172 ; USA: 99 ; Russia: 47 ; Turkey: 15 ; Japan: 11 ; S.Korea: 9 ; France: 9 ; Italy: 9 ; Germany: 8 ; Mexico: 8 ; Poland: 8 ; Uzbekistan: 6 ; Chile: 5 ; Kazakhstan: 5 ; Romania: 5 ; UK: 5 ; Canada: 5 ; Spain: 5 ; Australia: 3 ; Azerbaijan: 2 ...

Conclusions from those numbers, that is another matter.

Re: AI cameras catch 297 drivers in three days in Cornwall

#90

Post by xnx »

Verdex wrote: post #72
xnx wrote: post #36

Big fan of automated enforcement with human review: red light running, speeding, distracted driving, tailgating, etc. More please!

> red light running This is actually one of the interesting cases. Some studies indicate that while red light cameras reduce the number of red light running, it also increases the amount of rear end collisions. Because people are afraid of getting a ticket they slam on their brakes. Similarly, (iirc) there was some controversy about certain areas with red light cameras adjusting the length of yellow lights not to max…

Good notes. I see a lot of these as symptoms of adjustment pains. Once a driver's expectation is that they will get a ticket, they will treat yellow lights as designed. They a notification to slow down, not speed up.
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