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Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

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Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#31

Post by wk_end »

hinkley wrote: post #19
whats_a_quasar wrote: post #5

The brain is really complicated, and all psychiatric medications affect multiple receptors and subsystems. Framing this study as "antipsychotics were off target" is an editorial choice. The title could just as easily have been "Improved understanding of antipsychotic action means we may be able to design better antipsychotics." Edit: It also ought to be noted that the study was on mice that had been given amphetamine…

The serotonin model of antidepressants just doesn’t pass a sniff test. Something else is going on there. How they say they should work would mean they work in the first dose and possibly that don’t require tapering off. But that’s not what happens in the real world. If we understood what’s really happening we could target pathways better.

How antidepressants work doesn't seem especially germane to a discussion of antipsychotics?

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#32

Post by 11235813213455 »

I was diagnosed with schizophrenia, given some strong antipsychotics, it was a disaster I could barely talk or hand-write properly, gained 15kg. Fortunately I didn't listen the advices and stopped after 4 months, my therapy now is just walking, running, cycling, outdoor, trees, vegetable, minimalism

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#33

Post by psychphysic »

tcj_phx wrote: post #30

Strictly speaking, psychosis is more strongly related to excess serotonin, 'the molecule of stress and inflammation'. Doctors sometimes recognize 'Serotonin Syndrome' in their ER patients: "too much serotonin causes signs and symptoms that can range from mild (shivering and diarrhea) to severe (muscle rigidity, fever and seizures)." Usually the Serotonin Syndrome is caused by a combination of prescriptions, or street…

pimavanserin case in point

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#34

Post by Filligree »

BurningFrog wrote: post #12
pixl97 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If instead of saying brain you say "The most complicated structure found in the known universe so far" it starts to make a little more sense on the enormity of the problem at hand. Most organs are composed of one or only a few types of cells and their particular arrangement doesn't matter that much. For example swapping kidneys between people doesn't change who they are (mostly, smaller edge conditions apply here). B…

You can also think of "the brain" as a collection of 10-20 separate organs, rather than one super complex one.

Those 10-20 organs are all individually super complex…

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#35

Post by tredre3 »

11235813213455 wrote: post #32

I was diagnosed with schizophrenia, given some strong antipsychotics, it was a disaster I could barely talk or hand-write properly, gained 15kg. Fortunately I didn't listen the advices and stopped after 4 months, my therapy now is just walking, running, cycling, outdoor, trees, vegetable, minimalism

> Fortunately I didn't listen the advices and stopped after 4 months, my therapy now is just walking, running, cycling, outdoor, trees, vegetable, minimalism

Over-medication is a big problem, but you have to recognize that you are extremely lucky to be able to function without it. Not everybody can. I couldn't.

I share your experience regarding side effects, it would likely kill my career. Thankfully anti-psychotics work quickly, unlike antidepressants. As long as I have the discipline to recognize the signs, I can medicate mostly as needed. But this, again, is a privileged situation. More severe cases can't risk that "as needed" treatment.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#36

Post by copperx »

throwaway60707 wrote: post #17
maybelsyrup wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re correct overall, and I know what you mean. But to offer a small and somewhat provocative nitpick: these (the psychoses or any other so-called mental illness) aren’t “ailments of the brain”, as they’ve never been shown to be. None has any demonstrated underlying pathology, much less a clinically useful one.

You sure? Schizophrenia is directly linked to dopamine. So is ADHD, but in the opposite way (not enough dopamine). Both were demonstrated on fMRI. Psychosis is a physical issue in the brain (too much dopamine making the brain fire when it shouldn't) that's solved by administering dopamine antagonists (= antipsychotics).

Were any of the fMRI studies validated? I thought all related research was discarded.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#37

Post by tredre3 »

justsomeguyhere wrote: post #11

So I've tried half a dozen antipsychotics, here are my 2 cents: The only things those drugs did to me were making me comatose, poop my pants, sleepy, dumb and hungry. You can't be declared psychotic or paranoid, when the only thing you can do is sleep, drool, poop yourself, and make 3 words sentences, so lazy doctors think these drugs work. But they don't, there was zero change in my beliefs, fears, anxieties, I was…

I recognize myself very much in your words. I've also tried everything and it does not change my beliefs, fears, crippling anxiety one bit. Let alone improve my mood. Thankfully does help with mania. But the side effects are pretty bad and the doctors I've met tend to dismiss them, especially the more esoteric ones.

So I have to lie to doctors to steer them towards the care I really need. I would prefer not to lie. I tried not to lie. But when you tell them you want to quit or go as needed, they gently suggest committing you or lose interest in you. They see you as a toy to experiment on. It's impossible to be treated like an adult. It's infuriating.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#38

Post by Pixie_Dust »

My Schizophrenic friend tells me the difference between schizophrenics and normal people is that normal people can hear their own thoughts whilst schizophrenics can hear other peoples.

Serious point, maybe schizophrenic symptoms are cause by a disruption in REM sleep. As in the suffers are experiencing a waking dream. Some time back they did an experiement on students and kept them awake for days-and-nights on end. Eventually they couldn't tell the difference between the dreaming and the real world.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#39

Post by tcj_phx »

psychphysic wrote: post #33
tcj_phx wrote: post #30

Strictly speaking, psychosis is more strongly related to excess serotonin, 'the molecule of stress and inflammation'. Doctors sometimes recognize 'Serotonin Syndrome' in their ER patients: "too much serotonin causes signs and symptoms that can range from mild (shivering and diarrhea) to severe (muscle rigidity, fever and seizures)." Usually the Serotonin Syndrome is caused by a combination of prescriptions, or street…

pimavanserin case in point

Thanks for the tip:

  Pimavanserin has a unique mechanism 
  of action relative to other 
  antipsychotics, behaving as a 
  selective inverse agonist of the 
  serotonin 5-HT2A receptor, with 
  40-fold selectivity for this site 
  over the 5-HT2C receptor and no 
  significant affinity or activity 
  at the 5-HT2B receptor or dopamine 
  receptors.[2]
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimavanserin

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#40

Post by dontknowwhyihn »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #24
hinkley wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The serotonin model of antidepressants just doesn’t pass a sniff test. Something else is going on there. How they say they should work would mean they work in the first dose and possibly that don’t require tapering off. But that’s not what happens in the real world. If we understood what’s really happening we could target pathways better.

The "serotonin model", actually called the monoamine hypothesis, hasn't really been taken seriously in the field for decades, except by naysayers like yourself who continue to use it as a strawman.

Don’t people still talk about “low seratonin levels?” I always found it suspect that we say someone’s levels are low without actually measuring them.
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