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Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

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Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#11

Post by justsomeguyhere »

So I've tried half a dozen antipsychotics, here are my 2 cents:

The only things those drugs did to me were making me comatose, poop my pants, sleepy, dumb and hungry.

You can't be declared psychotic or paranoid, when the only thing you can do is sleep, drool, poop yourself, and make 3 words sentences, so lazy doctors think these drugs work.

But they don't, there was zero change in my beliefs, fears, anxieties, I was the exact same person, only slower, dumber, and sleepier.

And at some point, when you're exhausted from being a zombie, you end just lying to your doc and pretending everything is fine, even when you believe doctors should always know the truth, because it's the only way to stop yourself from staying a brain dead zombie for life and causing irreversible damage.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#12

Post by BurningFrog »

pixl97 wrote: post #7
rybosworld wrote: post #6

It's amazing how far the medical world has come in treating ailments of the body, but we've made comparatively little headway in ailments of the brain.

If instead of saying brain you say "The most complicated structure found in the known universe so far" it starts to make a little more sense on the enormity of the problem at hand. Most organs are composed of one or only a few types of cells and their particular arrangement doesn't matter that much. For example swapping kidneys between people doesn't change who they are (mostly, smaller edge conditions apply here). B…

You can also think of "the brain" as a collection of 10-20 separate organs, rather than one super complex one.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#13

Post by aatd86 »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #2

Situation normal. Consider the discovery of valproic acid: "Valproic acid is a carboxylic acid, a clear liquid at room temperature. For many decades, its only use was in laboratories as a "metabolically inert" solvent for organic compounds. In 1962, the French researcher Pierre Eymard serendipitously discovered the anticonvulsant properties of valproic acid while using it as a vehicle for a number of other compounds…

Normal might be a strong word. It messes with the brain which is the core.

Goes to show a lot of clinical medecine is about short-term relief and not necessarily about real health.

If you really look at it with unbiased eyes, between elective surgeries and what not, it's not really about curing any true dysfunction sometimes. Perhaps too many times.

We just go with the flow but, heck, MDs are not even necessarily healthier than you, some even smoke to this day!

Go figure...

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#14

Post by maybelsyrup »

rybosworld wrote: post #6

It's amazing how far the medical world has come in treating ailments of the body, but we've made comparatively little headway in ailments of the brain.

You’re correct overall, and I know what you mean. But to offer a small and somewhat provocative nitpick: these (the psychoses or any other so-called mental illness) aren’t “ailments of the brain”, as they’ve never been shown to be. None has any demonstrated underlying pathology, much less a clinically useful one.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#16

Post by fragmede »

Aurornis wrote: post #10

The study used a mouse model where amphetamine is used to simulate schizophrenia. Obviously, it's not guaranteed to map to real humans having real schizophrenia. That doesn't mean it's a useless result, but everyone should remember that research is an accumulation of decades of many little pieces of information. This is another clue, not a "nail in the coffin" of old theories. The ultimate evaluation of medication is…

While everyone should be keenly aware the limitations of taking experimental results in mice and extrapolating to humans (aka, they often don't), doesn't that mean what we really have, is a bunch of well tested medication for meth addicts? Which; if there was a way to get meth addicts off meth, would be a boon?

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#17

Post by throwaway60707 »

maybelsyrup wrote: post #14
rybosworld wrote: post #6

It's amazing how far the medical world has come in treating ailments of the body, but we've made comparatively little headway in ailments of the brain.

You’re correct overall, and I know what you mean. But to offer a small and somewhat provocative nitpick: these (the psychoses or any other so-called mental illness) aren’t “ailments of the brain”, as they’ve never been shown to be. None has any demonstrated underlying pathology, much less a clinically useful one.

You sure?

Schizophrenia is directly linked to dopamine. So is ADHD, but in the opposite way (not enough dopamine). Both were demonstrated on fMRI.

Psychosis is a physical issue in the brain (too much dopamine making the brain fire when it shouldn't) that's solved by administering dopamine antagonists (= antipsychotics).

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#18

Post by robinduckett »

I know someone who has diagnosised but untreated schizophrenia. She was admitted to the hospital after she started having thyroid problems and they also administered schizophrenia medication while she was in. The change in her behaviour was positive and dramatic and allowed her to start accepting help after being scared that men in white coats would take her away if she ever let on about her illness to anyone. Now she has been out of hospital for a while, unmedicated again and back to her old behaviour including talking to people who aren’t there and having bad episodes. Maybe some medications are off the mark but whatever they used for her absolutely worked.

I realise a sample size of one anecdotal piece of evidence is hardly scientific, but I’m getting rather tired of the constant mouse model studies, with barely related parameters.

I wish there was a better way to do medical research, in actual human beings. Unfortunately it seems historically that actual human medical research is mired in the suffering of the (generally unwilling) participants.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#19

Post by hinkley »

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #5

The brain is really complicated, and all psychiatric medications affect multiple receptors and subsystems. Framing this study as "antipsychotics were off target" is an editorial choice. The title could just as easily have been "Improved understanding of antipsychotic action means we may be able to design better antipsychotics." Edit: It also ought to be noted that the study was on mice that had been given amphetamine…

The serotonin model of antidepressants just doesn’t pass a sniff test. Something else is going on there. How they say they should work would mean they work in the first dose and possibly that don’t require tapering off. But that’s not what happens in the real world.

If we understood what’s really happening we could target pathways better.

Re: Schizophrenia drugs may have been off target for decades, study finds

#20

Post by edgyquant »

fragmede wrote: post #16
Aurornis wrote: post #10

The study used a mouse model where amphetamine is used to simulate schizophrenia. Obviously, it's not guaranteed to map to real humans having real schizophrenia. That doesn't mean it's a useless result, but everyone should remember that research is an accumulation of decades of many little pieces of information. This is another clue, not a "nail in the coffin" of old theories. The ultimate evaluation of medication is…

While everyone should be keenly aware the limitations of taking experimental results in mice and extrapolating to humans (aka, they often don't ), doesn't that mean what we really have, is a bunch of well tested medication for meth addicts? Which; if there was a way to get meth addicts off meth, would be a boon?

Not necessarily addicts. You don’t have to be addicted to achieve psychosis you just need to take a certain amount. For me this amount is pretty small, I was prescribed adderal for awhile and even 20mg was enough to induce serious paranoia and the occasional hallucination
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