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Ode to the M1

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Re: Ode to the M1

#231

Post by icedchai »

bombcar wrote: post #192
memefrog wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not concerned about electronic waste. Why not?

If you’re concerned about electronic waste specifically you’d never buy a new computer, only repair computers destined for the trash. Concerned about it in general is appropriate for governments and large companies, of course; they can make a dent.

I go out of my way to recycle things appropriately: dropping off old computers at the local e-waste depo, recycling old rechargeable batteries at retail, etc. It may very well be pointless, but at least I feel I tried.

Re: Ode to the M1

#232

Post by satvikpendem »

LtWorf wrote: post #214
satvikpendem wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we never asked them about our own application specifically, it was about what they preferred generally across all of their devices. So, no flaws here. You may just be projecting your own bias for OS specific controls onto the general populace.

I highly doubt your research was so perfect, since it seems it wasn't even peer reviewed and published, so that conveniently nobody can point out methodology flaws.

I never said it was some peer reviewed study, just that we did it for our team to figure out how to lay out the UX, that doesn't mean it's not statistically and methodologically valid. It seems you are also trying to project your biases on top of my comment so as to question any sort of research that we conducted.

Re: Ode to the M1

#233

Post by satvikpendem »

LtWorf wrote: post #213
satvikpendem wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most consumers don't care about native controls. In fact for a company it's more important to have a unified UX across all devices so that the user can pick up easily from one to the other, ie Macbook to iPhone. Slack is a good example of this.

How are controls unified when on a device you have a mouse and 400cm² of space and on another you have a finger and 60cm² of space?

Notice that the Slack app has a similar layout on both mobile and desktop, with a list of teams on the left, followed by channels, followed by the channel content. There are no device UI framework specific elements anywhere, it doesn't use iOS or Android style buttons nor is it designed with Fluent Design on Windows or HIG on macOS.

Re: Ode to the M1

#234

Post by baq »

hdjfkfbfbr wrote: post #175
baq wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re out of luck if you need docker. M1 Macs would make fantastic Linux laptops, because macOS is appallingly bad at backend development. It makes it up in sheer hardware power and efficiency, otherwise I’d be completely at loss why it’s so loved.

Docker runs fine... Both x64 and arm64 containers run

It requires a full VM. macOS is the only OS with that requirement.

Re: Ode to the M1

#235

Post by johnnyworker »

pocketarc wrote: post #63
dijit wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there is a name for the idea that the more you earn the lazier you get. Sysadmins used to know a lot but earn pittance compared to “devops” or “SRE”; then those more expensive folks outsourced the majority of their hard work to cloud vendors who charge 5-11x the cost for compute. Developers earn 5-10x more than 15 years ago, yet continue to choose solutions for their own convenience and time saving. Stati…

Because they -are- providing value, and because dev resources are limited. If you're a dev, do you think your company would want you to spend 2 weeks on building a new feature, or on "considering the entire ecosystem"? And more than that - if you have a team that only/mostly has web experience, they're going to use Electron, and... what kind of company would want them to stop and go learn native app development, or h…

> I'd love to point to an app and say "see? this is 20 years of development, look at how nice it is, how perfectly thought out everything is, how everything just works flawlessly".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directory_Opus

Re: Ode to the M1

#236

Post by ido »

dijit wrote: post #39
seanthemon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decenter developers can do that with a magnetized needle and a steady hand

I wonder if there is a name for the idea that the more you earn the lazier you get. Sysadmins used to know a lot but earn pittance compared to “devops” or “SRE”; then those more expensive folks outsourced the majority of their hard work to cloud vendors who charge 5-11x the cost for compute. Developers earn 5-10x more than 15 years ago, yet continue to choose solutions for their own convenience and time saving. Stati…

I don’t think developers earn 5-10x more than 15 years ago. Assuming you’re using something like $250k as a typical salary (for dev jobs at US tech-hubs) I guarantee you the typical equivalent in 2008 was not $25-50k.

Re: Ode to the M1

#237

Post by dijit »

ido wrote: post #236
dijit wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there is a name for the idea that the more you earn the lazier you get. Sysadmins used to know a lot but earn pittance compared to “devops” or “SRE”; then those more expensive folks outsourced the majority of their hard work to cloud vendors who charge 5-11x the cost for compute. Developers earn 5-10x more than 15 years ago, yet continue to choose solutions for their own convenience and time saving. Stati…

I don’t think developers earn 5-10x more than 15 years ago. Assuming you’re using something like $250k as a typical salary (for dev jobs at US tech-hubs) I guarantee you the typical equivalent in 2008 was not $25-50k.

Average income in tech-hub area in 2007 was: $85,355 for "Software Developers"[0]

Salary for developers that we discuss on HN seems to be in the region of $250k base, but that's not factoring in TC- which seems to be the bulk of income for the last 5 years. It's not unheard of around here to hear people talking about pulling in half-million if they are ex-FAANG. Which is nearly everybody these days.

[0]: source is here: https://www.datamation.com/careers/developer-salary-levels-2... based on https://e-janco.com

Re: Ode to the M1

#238

Post by Y-bar »

satvikpendem wrote: post #233
LtWorf wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are controls unified when on a device you have a mouse and 400cm² of space and on another you have a finger and 60cm² of space?

Notice that the Slack app has a similar layout on both mobile and desktop, with a list of teams on the left, followed by channels, followed by the channel content. There are no device UI framework specific elements anywhere, it doesn't use iOS or Android style buttons nor is it designed with Fluent Design on Windows or HIG on macOS.

Agreed that this is a good example where designing for everyone ends up with a worse product for everyone. Same thing goes for Teams, GitHub Desktop, and Postman.

It's horrible having to constantly context switch _within the operating system I am using right now within this very moment_. Context switching when switching devices is not a problem at all.

Re: Ode to the M1

#239

Post by johnnyworker »

ramesh31 wrote: post #20
mrd3v0 wrote: post #17

> Software "engineers" > For every extra cycle an hardware engineer can squeeze out of silicon, you will find a programmer adding one hundred cycles to their program[6]. In other terms, I fear that once devs figure out how powerful the M1 is, they will throw more "features" at it. Can we please stop replicating the "growth" fallacy into software ecosystems? Haven't we learnt enough about how unsustainable and damagin…

>I hope Electron/CEF die soon, and people get back to building applications that don't consume hundreds of megabytes of RAM to render a hello world. Yes, so we can go back to writing a hundred lines of imperative code to render hello world.

To the CPU it always boils down to sequences of instructions operating on data, so the syntax sugar put on top has be undone first, the abbreviations have to be unrolled, some way or another.

But more importantly it's really not about the lines you code write once, or very few times in comparison -- it's about the computer does any time the application starts up on any machine, or any user does something. Obviously, to an extent. You wouldn't write a thousand lines of code instead of 100 to make something that is already very fast 10% faster. But I certainly would write 10 line instead of 1 if it meant the code is 10 times faster. It's just typing after all.

Re: Ode to the M1

#240

Post by satvikpendem »

Y-bar wrote: post #238
satvikpendem wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice that the Slack app has a similar layout on both mobile and desktop, with a list of teams on the left, followed by channels, followed by the channel content. There are no device UI framework specific elements anywhere, it doesn't use iOS or Android style buttons nor is it designed with Fluent Design on Windows or HIG on macOS.

Agreed that this is a good example where designing for everyone ends up with a worse product for everyone. Same thing goes for Teams, GitHub Desktop, and Postman. It's horrible having to constantly context switch _within the operating system I am using right now within this very moment_. Context switching when switching devices is not a problem at all.

I wouldn't say worse, I appreciate not having to context switch between different devices.
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