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I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

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Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#211

Post by listenallyall »

moron4hire wrote: post #175
listenallyall wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that in isolation. If you have 50 other resumes on your desk for a React job, there's no way you're going to choose the guy who hasn't touched front-end since 2012.

That's not been my experience with hiring. My experience has been that 9 out of 10 resumes that cross my desk have almost no relevant job experience at all . I'd love to have someone apply to a .NET desktop app position with 5 years of solid experience building Java web services. I'd love to fill a Node.js web service position with at least someone who spent 10 years writing embedded C for home automation devices. He…

> My experience has been that 9 out of 10 resumes that cross my desk have almost no relevant job experience at all.

We're all out here shedding a tear for you. Not too sure what you expect, as they say, the real talent doesn't need to apply to job postings and submit resumes blindly. With that said, is there anything in your .NET desktop job posting that would encourage a Java web service developer to apply? The first day of every month a bunch of people with widely varying backgrounds and experience post on this very site that they are seeking work... ever reach out to any of them?

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#212

Post by scarface_74 »

doix wrote: post #208
scarface_74 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to find a job as a journeyman developer (nothing wrong with that) or are you trying to lead a team or be a senior where you are expected to be productive from day one and maybe mentor developers and be more strategic? Would you hire me someone who not only doesn’t know anything about Android development but doesn’t even follow the ecosystem and the current trends?

If I was looking for a job, I'd say that I have no professional Android experience but I'm confident that I could hit the ground running at a senior level and mentor juniors for Android. I mean, in this hypothetical scenario, I've decided that I want a job as an Android developer. So I would take my own time to learn Android whilst interviewing. By the time I got a job, I'm confident I'd hit the ground running. I wou…

> If I was looking for a job, I'd say that I have no professional Android experience but I'm confident that I could hit the ground running at a senior level and mentor juniors for Android

I can say I’m a little teapot. But without demonstrated experience, why would you hire me over one of the million developers with experience and have at least shipped an app?

> If I was interviewing someone and they said something like: "I have no experience with Android, but I know Kotlin and I'm confident I could pick it up. I did a similar thing with x,y,z" then sure.

Yes because “positive thoughts” without experience means you can be effective

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#213

Post by the_only_law »

somsak2 wrote: post #204
the_only_law wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because once the market goes belly up, being a generalist seems to be a death sentence. One thing I noticed having been on the job search for about a year now, is the amount of jobs looking for a specialist, whether that be in a particular domain, or technology. Often very obscure or “obsolete” stuff. I remember applying to a government job, and in their little checklist application, one of the questions was basicall…

The trick with these kinds of questions is to take a page from a politician's book and not answer it directly if you feel like you'd have to say "no". "I built X system in [somewhat adjacent domain]", "[hyper specific domain] is a subset of my work in [more general domain]" etc.

Unfortunately, it was just a series of yes/no radio buttons. Not much room for nuance or spinning.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#214

Post by mgkimsal »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #199
mgkimsal wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C, Java, PHP, SQL, Python, Ruby have kept a lot of people going for more than 20 years, and will likely continue to be relevant in some capacity for at least another decade (if only maintenance, not even including new projects started with those tech stacks). I've been working with PHP and some variation of SQL for the past 28 years, and it will go on for a while longer. I've also worked in the Java world, and have d…

true. But Java 2023 is quite different from Java1. The tools you use now are different (unless vi) You have had to learn a lot of new technologies, frameworks, syntax to keep up. PHP has also gone through so many changes that it is near a different beast these days than when it first appeared. So if you had relied on your skills you learn as PHP 1.0 and Java 1.0 today you would not be very productive.

Much/most of Java 1 will still compile, at least (FWIR). The evolutionary progress of java 1... to whatever it is now (current one I'm using is 17, but I know there's more past that) has largely been adding of new libraries/methods, etc, and the majority of your java skills from 10-15 years ago are still valid (although might not be the most efficient any more).

I've watched people go through Flash/Silverlight/Actionscript, multiple MS tech stacks, and many many other promising tech. Many have had to large scale reinventions of themselves and cram 'new to them' tech as the old stuff has gone away.

It's definitely easier to evolve with a tech stack over the years. You get a better sense of idioms, best practices, etc. that is hard to replicate overnight.

And yeah, some tooling is different over the years too, but yeah, vi still works :)

Shiny new 'hey look at this' ideas can pop up in newish langs, but diving deep in to them isn't often the best path for most people. The truly good and impactful ideas tend to get recognized and adopted in the more mainstream ecosystems over time, giving you most of the benefits without needing to throw out much of your experience.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#215

Post by fragmede »

spacemadness wrote: post #167
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks very much for posting this, totally agree. I get frustrated when I hear all these missives about how easy it is for any good developer to learn a new language "in a couple days". I think this paragraph was key: > Learning a language is easy. Modern development requires knowing the toolchain framework, idiosyncrasies, foot guns, best practices, etc. That said, I still nearly always hire for general skills and n…

Great, you learned swift and can do a bunch of leetcode with it. It has nothing to do with actually managing a complicated iOS software project with the zany decisions that have gone into the framework design and tooling. Also good luck with the lazy documentation from Apple and the extremely contrived examples from educators. Can you learn all this in somewhat reasonable time and not code something horrific as a res…

Not to out myself and my level of skill, but it took me several days off and on just to wrap my head around the minutiae to get Apple signing for macOS and iOS to work just right. Learning the rest of the ecosystem came along eventually, but I think the real point is with a couple of days worth of intense study, I, and any other developer worth their salt, can bullshit your interview that requires a specific language, but no one requires a specific language for interviews anymore because everyone knows that!

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#216

Post by fragmede »

ptx wrote: post #123
sgt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may lack things - true. But it's a pleasure to work in. I code quite a bit of Dart these days and the language never really holds you back. It flows quite easily. I use some code generation by having a build runner in the background.

Isn't the need for code generation indicative of the language holding you back?

Isn't the need to drive a car indicative of living in the suburbs "holding you back"?

Code generation (and modification) tools are there to help you. You can choose to walk everywhere but once the car becomes ubiquitous, why walk?

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#217

Post by scarface_74 »

listenallyall wrote: post #211
moron4hire wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not been my experience with hiring. My experience has been that 9 out of 10 resumes that cross my desk have almost no relevant job experience at all . I'd love to have someone apply to a .NET desktop app position with 5 years of solid experience building Java web services. I'd love to fill a Node.js web service position with at least someone who spent 10 years writing embedded C for home automation devices. He…

> My experience has been that 9 out of 10 resumes that cross my desk have almost no relevant job experience at all. We're all out here shedding a tear for you. Not too sure what you expect, as they say, the real talent doesn't need to apply to job postings and submit resumes blindly. With that said, is there anything in your .NET desktop job posting that would encourage a Java web service developer to apply? The firs…

This is what I find amazing about a lot of the replies I see here. I saw the writing on the wall four months ago that I was probably going to be “Amazoned” soon after my manager left.

I’ve been warming up my network like crazy over the past four months, preparing my resume and career document, etc. I keep my network semi-warm regardless.

When the day came and I had the offer to quit and get big check or stay, I chose the quit option, before my last day, I had one manager trying to create a position for me, a second round scheduled with another former company and a third and final round scheduled at a third company.

All based on networking.

It’s foolish in this market to hope something is going to happen quickly by randomly uploading your resume to an ATS and keyword stuffing your resume like an SEO technique from the 90s trying to juice your position on Altavista.

On the hiring side, a hiring manager also needs a network that they can call on when trying to find candidates.

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#218

Post by scarface_74 »

fragmede wrote: post #215
spacemadness wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, you learned swift and can do a bunch of leetcode with it. It has nothing to do with actually managing a complicated iOS software project with the zany decisions that have gone into the framework design and tooling. Also good luck with the lazy documentation from Apple and the extremely contrived examples from educators. Can you learn all this in somewhat reasonable time and not code something horrific as a res…

Not to out myself and my level of skill, but it took me several days off and on just to wrap my head around the minutiae to get Apple signing for macOS and iOS to work just right. Learning the rest of the ecosystem came along eventually, but I think the real point is with a couple of days worth of intense study, I, and any other developer worth their salt, can bullshit your interview that requires a specific language…

Do your interviewers not ask you to talk through your real world experience?

Re: I feel like I made a mistake investing professionally into Flutter

#219

Post by coffeebeqn »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #80
tkiolp4 wrote: post #15

I don’t buy it. As software developers we learn technologies for breakfast. We learn them, and then we forget them. We recollect the wisdom gained and apply it in our next gig using a different technology. It works for mobile development, for frontend, for backend, for infra, for almost anything. I have worked for years with PHP, Apache, Ansible and MySQL. Nowadays not anymore. And in 7 years I’ll be using something…

It's one thing knowing the language, it's another being productive with the ecosystem. One takes between a few days and a few months. The other is a few years, unless you get pro training. I guarantee most people starting with Python from another language will be productive quickly. But they will curse the packaging ecosystem because they will follow a lot of tutorials that don't follow this: https://bitecode.substac…

I don’t agree at all. I was productive within a month in a completely new language and stack at my current job for example. Once you know a few inside out, it’s just pattern matching with some Googling of “what’s X in Y language”.

Extremely deep knowledge of a language is very rarely needed, even when it is as long as you can somewhat vocalize the problem it’s just debugging

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