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Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

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Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#171
post #150
post #124

For people who are OK with keeping their money in banks but want to take it out as cash so they can spend it anonymously (as opposed to those who want cash because they don't want to have anything to do with the banking system at all) it is possible to design a system that retains the anonymity of cash but has the convenience of digital currency. And no, this does not require a blockchain. Long before Bitcoin, back i…

Where is the technical description of this?

There have been a few such systems. One of the earliest was David Chaum's Ecash [1]. The first three references on that page link to papers covering technical details.

Here's a paper analyzing several digital cash protocols [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecash

[2] https://ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/infk/inst-...

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really sucks is that I can't say anybody is wrong for being skeptical of a government, insofar as any large organization with power over individuals is dangerous. But the critical mistake they are making is that this doesn't mean a government action can't be good. Coordinating public health responses is probably one of the most good government actions possible, and it was vilified for political power. In my mind…

The issue is that there's a difference between coordinating and coercing. If you want to have a body that studies the best way to stymie a pandemic and make recommendations, and one of those recommendations is to wear a mask in certain circumstances, that's great. If that body has a reputation for being competent and reasonable then most people will follow their recommendations. The problem comes when those recommend…

> The problem comes when those recommendations become regulations which get enforced without context or nuance, because then people chafe, and it becomes a political issue, and then people resist for the sake of resisting. Which makes everything worse, and that doesn't work.

The core issue was fearmongering and misinformation. We had people on TV, on the internet, reaching a wide audience, just making up lies about the pandemic or "just asking questions" in a way that is identical to making up and spreading lies. They did this for power, for ratings, for fun, whatever. It is also true that the implementation was not great and that Americans have a cultural tendency to petulance when "told" to do something, but I expect most of that could have been worked through if there wasn't such an active opposition.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me if I don't exactly take "I can't commit crime as easily" as a good justification for anything. If you don't like the tax law, work on getting it changed or move your business somewhere where the taxes are more to your liking. Oh, being in NYC gives you access to a massive market you wouldn't have if you were in a lower tax environment? A market that continues to exist thanks to infrastructure funded via ta…

> Forgive me if I don't exactly take "I can't commit crime as easily" as a good justification for anything. That was half of it—the other half was some businesses would prefer to not have a credit card processor party to their sale. It could be for a number of reasons that that are perfectly valid and legal. > If you don't like the tax law, work on getting it changed or move your business Also, to be clear, I am but…

Sorry for the late reply but it's Monday and I don't feel like doing actual work yet and lol, just lol if you read HN when you're not on the clock.

Much like taxes, it comes down to market access. By accepting credit cards, they get access to a larger market, a larger potential set of customers. The cashless person can patronize their business thanks to the electronic payment infrastructure the banks created and maintain. That infrastructure is paid for by transaction fees.

If a business owner feels that cards are too much of a privacy issue or whatever aside from the fees, that's their opinion and they're welcome to it. They can work to find payment systems and markets that align with their values if it bugs them sufficiently. There is a possibility that the intersection of the sets of "places where the markets align with their values", "places where the business owner wants to operate", and "places where the business can be successful" might be small or nonexistent. You can't always get what you want, as the song says.

Likewise, a business owner who feels taxes are unfair can look for places where the taxes align to their values. There may or may not be places that have an agreeable tax structure and sufficient markets to sustain the business.

I get pretty tired of business owners who act like the government and service providers are unjustly stealing from them when often the business' entire ability to exist and sustain itself depends on the infrastructure and services provided.

You're the messenger, yes, but no one forced you to put your hands on the keyboard. Don't be surprised if you're handed a response for the message you chose to deliver. Feel free to carry it back to the business owners you've chatted with.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash don't prevent a dictatorship. But having your entire population tracked when they pay and a way to shut down the money of anything because it has no cash fallback helps a lot setting one up.

How so? Look at modern dictatorships, or ones masquerading as democracies (Venezuela, North Korea, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Cuba, etc). They all use and allow cash. How did sticking to cash help them prevent their situation? You can't function in a moderns western country without a bank account anyway: rent, salary, utilities, all are fully wired now (I can't go pay my utilities at the counter in cash or get my salary i…

> How did sticking to cash help them prevent their situation?

The contrapositive is not true.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion is my biggest gripe against the existence of cash. As a professional working for a company, I have little or no means of avoiding tax. Rich people can and do pay expensive lawyers and accountants to exploit loopholes in tax law, to minimize their tax liability. People in cash-friendly occupations, like contracting, likewise have the ability to hide income through under-the-table cash transactions. Which l…

> just so that a few people can feel like they are evading government supervision. (Hint: they are not). It seems like you're conceding your own point here. If you live in a mansion and drive a Ferrari and claim you only make $15,000/year to the IRS, you're going to jail like Al Capone. Whereas what cash allows you to do is keep anyone from knowing every little thing you buy , which is irrelevant to income tax which…

The only time I would be worried about authorities knowing what I am buying would be if I were buying an axe, a rope and a shovel.

The people cheating taxes through cash transactions are not driving Ferraris, but they are buying groceries with un-taxed wads of money at Costco.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#176
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Europe, I have the feeling the vast majority of people consider it unnecessary. The vibe I get is "The system works, so why not let the government handle and control everything.". > I wouldn't be surprised if that is a golbal phenomena and holds steady throughout time. Come to the east of EU/Europe and you'll see a completely opposite vibe. No wonder, people in their 40s still remember communism. And the ol…

In Poland cashless payments thrive, more than in Germany.

There is a general phenomenon that countries who pioneer a concept or technology and start to deploy an earlier iteration at great scale seem to stick with the older version while younger countries "skip" ahead. Good example might be the magnet stripe card payments or check books common in the US but almost never used in Western Europe anymore.

I suspect Poland's precarious positions in the 19th century might have affected its development of central banking and currency in such a way as to make society less "stuck in its ways".

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