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Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

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Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#161
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chile is an outlier, the plants are in remote locations in the Atacama desert where you have two compelling reasons to build solar plants: There is a lot of space where nobody lives and the sun is always shining. There are mountains but there are also lots of places which are flat for as far as the eye can see, an example would be the Cerro Dominador plant which probably didn't require any ground preparation. On http…

Chile is cheaper, and in a solar-powered world energy intensive industries will move to such places. If (say) Sweden wants to try to preserve industries by building nuclear power plants, they'll find the expensive power from nukes competing against the dirt cheap power from Chilean (or Namibian, or Australian, or Saudi Arabian) solar.

> in a solar-powered world energy intensive industries will move to such places.

And to windy places. Happening already in Europe, building new industrial plant close to the huge and fast growing offshore North Sea wind power plants

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are real life superconductors ideal, i.e. they truly would store a charge forever (at least until the material disintegrated)? Or is there some sort of loss, albeit much less than typical resistance?

1. Something “in a superconducting state” has zero resistance, but the transition to superconducting states is not sudden, and there are various things which disrupt that state like magnetic fields. 2. Alternating currents will dissipate even with zero resistance, because the circuit will emit EM waves.

Ladder lines are balanced transmission lines, so they do not emit EM radiation.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#164

Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement. I used to be really interested in this, b…

Even just reading "mobius" and I cannot not hear the line from Warf "There is this theory of the mobious. It twists in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop. Time becomes a loop. Time becomes a loop." Of course, I'm referencing the Orbital track

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#165

Ahh, Wendelstein is that stellerator reactor. The stellerator is really cool, and an alternative to a tokamak reactor. Tokamak is the doughnut shaped reactor, and it has a problem where the plasma near the outer circumference has less magnetic confinement. The stellerator is similar, but confines the plasma to a ribbon and folds it over on itself in a mobius-like arrangement. I used to be really interested in this, b…

I find the geometry of things like this fascinating. We typically think in such simple shapes. I feel like my brain can do triangle, rectangle and maybe hexagons and that's about it. I remember when I finally understood radians enough to really understand circles and waveforms—I felt so enlightened. Like I actually remember the moment when it clicked. For years I was just "doing the work" without actually understandi…

>I want to be able to think in mobius, but my brain is currently like, "No thanks."

I spent a lot time staring at Escher images as a teen, so I think my brain says "yes please". I have no idea what to do with any of it, so it's not like it does me any good.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know enough to say more. Say more!

I'm not that guy, but I can speak to what you're asking. I've followed Wendelstein 7-X for almost a decade. Nuclear fusion occurs at extremely-high temperatures. As you heat your fusion fuel to sufficiently-high temperatures to allow fusion, the matter transitions into a plasma, which is great: plasmas react to electromagnetic fields. As such, a major challenge with achieving viable nuclear fusion is making a vessel…

The terms (not specific to tokamaks) are "toroidal" and "poloidal". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_and_poloidal_coordina...

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#167
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the geometry of things like this fascinating. We typically think in such simple shapes. I feel like my brain can do triangle, rectangle and maybe hexagons and that's about it. I remember when I finally understood radians enough to really understand circles and waveforms—I felt so enlightened. Like I actually remember the moment when it clicked. For years I was just "doing the work" without actually understandi…

I can't really think in (visualize) 3d shapes, so I depend a lot on 3D geometry programs when I design things like for my microscope. A fair number of people I've talked to can visualize complex shapes in their head, rotate them around, do interference checking, etc.

What about those tests where they say to fold a piece of paper X number of times, and then punch holes in specific places. You then have to pick the image of what the paper would look like unfolded. Do these types of visualizations give you the same issue? I have known several people that just could not visualize these tests, and I'm curious if these are related.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#168

I don’t get it; who cares? We know the equations to burn plasma; that’s the easy part. The hard part is building a machine that can burn plasma and breed tritium at appreciable rates. Why even bother with these machines that can never be built economically?

We know the equations for flight. Why didn't they just build a 787 in the 40s already? Oh, is it because the technology didn't exist and first had to be developed, in incremental refinements? Initial airplanes didn't even fly and half the people trying them died? Oh...

The basic equations of aerodynamics led people (like von Karman) to conclude that lighter than air craft would not be competitive. And so it proved.

The basic physics of DT fusion reactors led Lidsky to conclude that any DT reactor would have poor power density. And so it has proved.

Sometimes knowledge lets one rule out whole branches of the technology search tree.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. This is fascinating stuff and reminds me of some crazy rant some guy was telling me about anti-gravity and how electromagnetic “ribbons” could propel you. Obviously the guy was nuts, right? How would one go about learning more about electromagnetic plasma containment folding?

Haha, no I am just some random guy who reads too many Wikipedia articles. "Electromagnetic plasma containment folding" does sound like something a crazy person at a bus station would rant about. My explanation was definitely over simplified, but I'm not knowledgable enough to go into detail on the topic. I can't even point you towards something to read on the topic since everything I read about it is like 15 years ol…

>"Electromagnetic plasma containment folding" does sound like something a crazy person at a bus station would rant about.

Or the very person that someone with a show like Art Bell would have as a guest.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#170
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Theoretically' is the right word for sure. iirc, the predecessor of the Wendelstein led to the bankruptcy of the engineering firms building the parts, because tolerances were so tight and they failed multiple times to land within the constraints.

true. but on the other hand, the 'theoretical' is being turned into practice as evidenced by this 8 minute containment. the best a tokamak can do is half a second.

Tokamak record time for plasma confinement is 403 seconds as of April 2023, see https://english.cas.cn/newsroom/mutimedia_news/202304/t20230...

403s is about 7 minutes, so less than Wendelstein 7-X.

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