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Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

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Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#21

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

barbazoo wrote: post #4
foolfoolz wrote: post #2

i’ve been following this project for 10 years. it’s been successful. but how do projects like these move faster? the wendelstein 7x is never going to generate usable electricity. it’s supposed to be the pre cursor to the producing reactor

> the wendelstein 7x is never going to generate usable electricity What's the reason for that?

You can't jump from idea to production power plant in one step. This is research about the fundamental science involved. What they're doing is incredibly difficult and complex. They have a plasma at millions of degrees mere centimeters from superconductors at near absolute zero. The field geometry and interactions are so complex it brings even current supercomputers to their knees. The device wasn't even possible to simulate until the late 90s using the biggest machines in the world.

What they've already demonstrated is a tremendous accomplishment. But apparently if it doesn't go from idea to an option in door dash in 6 months flat that's not good enough for people here.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#22

Post by anonuser123456 »

I don’t get it; who cares? We know the equations to burn plasma; that’s the easy part.

The hard part is building a machine that can burn plasma and breed tritium at appreciable rates.

Why even bother with these machines that can never be built economically?

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#23

Post by [deleted] »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #19

Speaking of fusion does anyone know what is going on with SPARC at Commonwealth Fusion Systems? I have been very excited about their system but they are understandably in a deep development and construction cycle after a $2B investment, so all their news page has for the last year are updated business deals and awards. I would love to hear how reactor construction is going.

[deleted]

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#24

Post by amelius »

aidenn0 wrote: post #8

What is "energy turnover" in this usage? [edit] Found it: "Energy turnover is defined as the amount of heat multiplied by the duration of the discharge[1]." By "amount of heat" I assume they mean "heating power delivered to the plasma" b/c the the only way to multiply by time and get Joules is to start with power. 1: https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20230227-wendelstein-7-x-en...

Isn't this similar to the monetary meaning of the word turnover? Like turnover : profit energy turnover : net energy output?

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#25

Post by KyleBerezin »

gabereiser wrote: post #12
white_dragon88 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know enough to say more. Say more!

Seconded. This is fascinating stuff and reminds me of some crazy rant some guy was telling me about anti-gravity and how electromagnetic “ribbons” could propel you. Obviously the guy was nuts, right? How would one go about learning more about electromagnetic plasma containment folding?

Haha, no I am just some random guy who reads too many Wikipedia articles. "Electromagnetic plasma containment folding" does sound like something a crazy person at a bus station would rant about.

My explanation was definitely over simplified, but I'm not knowledgable enough to go into detail on the topic. I can't even point you towards something to read on the topic since everything I read about it is like 15 years old at this point.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#26

Post by StackOverlord »

gabereiser wrote: post #12
white_dragon88 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know enough to say more. Say more!

Seconded. This is fascinating stuff and reminds me of some crazy rant some guy was telling me about anti-gravity and how electromagnetic “ribbons” could propel you. Obviously the guy was nuts, right? How would one go about learning more about electromagnetic plasma containment folding?

> Dr. Ning Li of Huntsville, AL passed peacefully away on July 27, 2021. She was 79 years old. One of the world's leading scientists in super-conductivity anti-gravity. Dr. Li had constructed first 12" HTSD of the world in late 90s.

https://www.berryhillfh.com/obituary/ning-li?lud=4CF765EE88E...

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#27

Post by constantcrying »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #22

I don’t get it; who cares? We know the equations to burn plasma; that’s the easy part. The hard part is building a machine that can burn plasma and breed tritium at appreciable rates. Why even bother with these machines that can never be built economically?

>Why even bother with these machines that can never be built economically?

If you can not build a research reactor which functions well, then "building a machine that can burn plasma and breed tritium at appreciable rates." is more than impossible.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#28

Post by t0mas88 »

aeyes wrote: post #11
KyleBerezin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are researching fusion technology. It would take a reactor many times larger to get more energy out of the facility than you put in. The technology still needs to mature before a reactor that size would be financially responsible.

In the German Alternativlos podcast the Wendelstein team (Prof. Dr. Thomas Klinger, Dr. Adrian von Stechow) recently stated that it is already feasible, they estimate a cost of ~€20B and a 5 year construction time for a commercial fusion power plant if we started now. https://alternativlos.org/51/

For less than 15 billion euro you could buy enough solar to power a country the size of the Netherlands. With 5 billion to spend on batteries you might even make it through night time usage.

Or in other words: Fusion is too expensive at this point to be useful.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#29

Post by constantcrying »

barbazoo wrote: post #4
foolfoolz wrote: post #2

i’ve been following this project for 10 years. it’s been successful. but how do projects like these move faster? the wendelstein 7x is never going to generate usable electricity. it’s supposed to be the pre cursor to the producing reactor

> the wendelstein 7x is never going to generate usable electricity What's the reason for that?

>What's the reason for that?

It is about research. It generating usable electricity is absolutely irrelevant.

You need research projects to figure out what works and what doesn't. The goal isn't to build a practical reactor.

Re: Wendelstein 7-X: Gigajoule energy turnover generated for eight minutes

#30

Post by karmajunkie »

This is perhaps an obvious question to some, but I'll ask it anyway: How is the power generated here converted into usable electricity?

I know for conventional fission reactors the heat of fission is basically used to run a steam turbine. Given the extreme heat of the plasma, and that it must be magnetically suspended so that it doesn't even touch the sides of the containment, how is that heat transferred to some other medium to generate electricity?

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