Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 193 posts

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#131

Post by lutorm »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #97

All that talk about unions misses one much more systemic point. It's that linking social benefits to individual employment relationships is a bad idea. It creates dependencies that make the system inflexible. It reduces worker mobility. It creates long term obligations that individual companies, not matter how large, can never garantee. It's a paternalistic model that puts companies in the position of families or sta…

Yeah, this is one of the arguments for universal healthcare and government-managed retirement benefits.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#132

Post by astine »

mattmaroon wrote: post #103
ensignavenger wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that it is morally wrong to take money from relatively rich people to give to relatively poor, but not the other way around? I think any (Government) wealth redistribution is morally wrong, but that's just my 2 cents!

Government cannot exist without redistributing wealth. You've been listening to too many Palin rallies. Every time a government changes tax rates, wealth gets redistributed. Every time it builds a school or a road, wealth is redistributed. Every economic policy redistributes wealth. I hope the I just redistributed your 2 cents :)

I think that he means explicit wealth redistribution. If government uses your tax money to to finance the police system, sure it is moving wealth around, but a healthy police is necessary for a free society and functioning economy, so in the end, everyone benefits. This is different from just taking from one group and giving to another.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#133

Post by lutorm »

chaostheory wrote: post #16
antidaily wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but how about the hundreds of small businesses and suppliers that depend on the Big 3 for work?

smart businesses (especially small ones) change and adapt. if not they fail. why subsidize bad practices and decisions?

The aim of government is not to support businesses but to support the citizenry. The relevant question is not whether businesses will be better off, it's whether people will be better off.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#134

Post by astine »

ensignavenger wrote: post #83
yummyfajitas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, I noticed that (and edited my post to reflect it), apparently while you were writing your post. However, there are plenty of people who make less money than auto workers who do pay taxes. One reason the bailout is morally wrong is that it is a regressive tax. It takes from the (relatively) poor and gives to the (relatively) rich.

Are you saying that it is morally wrong to take money from relatively rich people to give to relatively poor, but not the other way around? I think any (Government) wealth redistribution is morally wrong, but that's just my 2 cents!

I'd say that it's less wrong, to redistribute in this fashion as it is at least under the guise of charity.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#135

Post by Dilpil »

ckinnan wrote: post #53
yummyfajitas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Person A, a waitress at Dennys, making about $8-10/hour with high deductible health care. Person B, an auto worker at GM, making $30-40/hour with zero deductible health care. [edit: see response to this post, auto worker gets $73/hour.] The bailout: tax person A in order to help person B, with 3 large corporations taking a cut of the proceeds. Does this make any sense? Incidentally, the original poster did not descri…

Actually the average UAW salary is around $73 an hour. But the executives are far worse and totally undeserving of any taxpayer help: "While Uncle Sam debates a $25 billion rescue for the country's automakers, some 9,000 GM managers continue to enjoy one of the industry's best perks - a new car every six months for $250 a month, with repairs and insurance included. And they can write off gas on their expenses." http:…

$73 is labor cost, this includes many things on top of the $30 per hour. This is higher than their competitors but not by as much as it seems.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#136

Post by astine »

Prrometheus wrote: post #34
prospero wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40% of Democrats opposed the original bailout package, compared to 66% of Republicans. That's a difference to be sure, but the vote was obviously not down party lines. Furthermore, Bush was a strong supporter of both packages, and was vocal in his disappointment when the first failed to pass. Facts exist independently of your opinion; you don't get to make them up to fit your argument. Please try to remember that.

In a congress that passes bills by majority, a clear majority of one party supported it and a clear majority of the other opposed it. House Republicans are consistently the most conservative caucus in Congress, and deserve praise for when they do the right thing as much as they deserve the opposite when they are wrong.

It's true, that Republicans are more likely to uphold free-market principles than Democrats are, and this vote does demonstrate that, but it also demonstrates that that R next your representatives name is no guarantee that he is fiscally conservative. I prefer to vote based on personality and not on party and would prefer that both parties were destroyed and sent back to the abyss where they belong.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#137

Post by jmatt »

crabapple wrote: post #11

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions.

It's not the waitress at denny's - there is a very good chance she pays no federal taxes.

No, it's the engineers, management and entrepreneurs of all the successful companies in the US that are going to pay for the bail out(s).

I agree let them go bankrupt or even a managed bankruptcy. They need to get those liabilities off the books.

barak obama cannot force me to buy a buick

This is how much of the world works, subsidize the local car companies and tax and tariff the foreign car companies. Currently the foreign car companies are essentially on the same playing field as foreign car companies in the US. Hopefully it will stay that way.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#138

Post by Dilpil »

Retric wrote: post #124
Xichekolas wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers that no one else in america has" Well about 10% of Americans work for the government in some respect. How often do they get fired, in spite of doing nothing? (Disclaimer: I once worked for State Government. I'm not sure how much work UAW members did, but I can't see how anyone can get less done than Government Employees did. For every one that worked really hard, th…

I don't think 3/4 of teachers, police, and the military simply show up and are waiting for retirement. They might not put in 110% as it where but they still get a lot of stuff done. I think it's the Government office workers that don't really do much but most private sector office workers don't seem to get much done so I wonder how much less effective they really are. (Cue XKCD comic "it's time for science" or some s…

3/4ths of teachers sounds about reasonable.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#139

Post by antidaily »

Tichy wrote: post #129
antidaily wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM is still #2 in sales worldwide.

Then why do they have a problem?

Financial wing GMAC got killed by subprime, the credit crunch, gas prices... all that on top of lagging sales. Sure, some of that perfect storm is their own fault. But, it's not as simple as "their cars suck" and "the workers make too much money".

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#140

Post by fallentimes »

mchristoff wrote: post #98
fallentimes wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, it is difficult. But where your Dad is at (the same place my Dad was at) is nothing more than the product of their own decisions. Is it anyone's fault but your Dad's that he's only qualified to work in a factory? Is it anyone's fault but my Dad's that he didn't learn about computers even though he saw them appearing everywhere? My Dad was able to learn some new skills and eventually land on his feet aft…

sure, no one is entitled to a job. that's not my point at all. things change and jobs change. what I was trying to explain is why my dad would travel 100mi to get to work. yeah sure, he could have went to med school or something, but he had a family to support and nearing retirement that was his best option. i feel it's pretty arrogant to even make a statement, "why did he just find another job". sure he could have,…

I understand. But again the situation is just what he created for himself (and what my Dad created for himself). Everything - the wife, the kids, the car, the house (if applicable) - those were his decisions and my Dad's decisions.

People need to be accountable for their actions and realize that your current state is no one's fault (or achievement) but your own.

Post reply on HN