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Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

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81–90 of 193 posts

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#81

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones.

my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family didn't have to move. when he retired a few years ago he made $25/hr + the overtime which he always worked so i could go to college. $25/hr an hour is not 8x of your hypothetical denny's waitress, it's what we call a "living wage". maybe your denny's waitress worked harder than my father, but assumption that every UAW worker somehow is swimming in a money bin like in scrooge mcduck while the rest of the country is toiling in the coal mines is false.

i'm not defending the auto industry here, nor do have i decided whether it would benefit my country or my family to bail them out. i think management made some terrible decisions (see: suvs + $100/barrel oil), and i think UAW bargained for some deals that were unsustainable. heck, i'm not saying you should buy a buick... i'm sure as hell not. but why do you need to degrade the sacrifice of honest people to make your point?

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#82

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

This post smacks of jealousy. What is wrong with zero deductible healthcare? I don't fault someone for trying to climb society's ladder. I want everyone in America to be able to earn a living wage. Being in a union doesn't make one lazy or overpaid. How do you over pay someone anyway? Who deems what a job is worth to society? It is very unfortunate that the big three made the agreements they did, but they made them.…

Interesting question: who deems what a job is worth to society?

Many things: First, we all do. As a simplistic example, would you hire me at $50/hour to patrol the front of your house for squirrels? No. No matter how diligent or hard-working I was, that function is not worth $50/hr to you. In fact, it may be worth nothing at all. A little less simplistic: would you keep me on fulltime staff to clean your apartment or house at $100,000 per year? Probably not. If I charged $1,000 per year, you probably would. A clean apartment/home is a good thing (by most people's standards). It has value. How much value? Well, that depends on how much people are willing to part with for it. Maybe you would rather waste your time cleaning. Maybe I would be idle most of the time because your place isn't that big and therefore it doesn't justify fulltime staffing.

Second, alternatives. I touched on this already a little with your substituting your labor for mine, but it goes even further. Can the process be mechanized? In the era before computers, there were still things like directories and it must have been a damn tedious process alphabetizing all those names. The person was, no doubt, hardworking, but as computers came along and could do the job quicker and more accurately, well, that person no longer had function. Yes, the value of sorted data didn't change, but the cost to acquire sorted data did change while that person didn't (or maybe they did and became a valuable computer technician or something).

Third, output. What is its intrinsic value. A car has intrinsic value, but it also varies by person - a car is worth more to the President than it is to me. He's busier, I can take the subway without fear of assassination, etc. The more expensive a car is, the fewer people will have it. For the most part, producers don't get to price discriminate - if Bill Gates goes to the Mazda dealership he'll get a similar price that I get even if the car is worth a lot more to him.

Forth, competition. Are there other people that are willing to do the job for less? I'm guessing beer tasters don't get paid well, but I'd also wager that breweries don't have trouble finding people for the job. Likewise, if competitors are more efficient (either companies or other workers), it makes your labor less valuable. If your company produces 1 car for every 50 hours of labor and another company produces 1 car for every 25 hours of labor, your labor isn't worth as much. If I can automate processes that save time, my labor becomes worth more and yours less.

Fifth, other goods. Economics is about allocating scarcity. Many try and argue that we're not an economy of scarcity anymore and that we have enough for everyone and that it's just a corrupt capitalist system that prevents that from happening. Then they create cost of living calculations for a living wage that consider someone without cable to be in dire poverty. Face it, we like things. If we could all live without things (from TVs to medicines), we'd be fine. So, the question is: on a per dollar basis, how has the automobile fared against other things we can spend our money on? For me, on a per dollar spent basis, my computer is much more valuable. Are people moving a certain percent that they used to spend on cars toward CDs or TVs or computers or cranial piercings? I have no idea, but we all allocate our budgets in ways that we hope will increase our happiness. People's tastes change, society's tastes change. Portable radios do positively affect your happiness and are cheap (say, $20), but people seem to have widely pronounced that MP3 players (at 5-10x the cost) positively affect their happiness at a rate greater than that 5-10x increase. Or they're just idiots that don't know what to do with money.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. It's a truly fascinating topic. In the GM case, there are some neat applications to see.

1. When GM, Ford, and Chrysler were pretty much the only auto makers, the amount of competition was less which meant that consumers would pay more and fewer units would be shipped. If you want to calculate how this works, look up the cournot/nash equilibrium. As the car companies were selling at higher margins and ignoring the poorer people, labor could demand more money since the car companies were making more money per unit of labor used.

2. Other firms with lower labor costs also became more efficient. Toyota makes cars faster combined with a lower cost per hour. That means GM's labor is worth less money.

3. The value of output might be fluctuating. Here is where I'm spouting complete BS. As gas prices rise, the intrinsic value of a vehicle declines. Americans also seem to be having a shift in their perception of public transit and as their view of it becomes more favorable, the value of a car decreases. However, as most people are suburban, a car can still be a lifeline.

It's late. I'm done. Hopefully that was interesting. It wasn't meant to have any view pro or con in it, just more of a view into how prices get set and how we value things.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that person A doesn't pay any taxes. You're certainly taxing some people to pay for it, but it's not person A. Also, the idea behind bailouts like this is that they are a loan. Ideally the government is profiting from this sort of thing, especially when you consider the overall economic impact of laying off thousands of GM employees, or allowing thousands of pensions to swirl down the drain. I'm agains…

Heh, I noticed that (and edited my post to reflect it), apparently while you were writing your post. However, there are plenty of people who make less money than auto workers who do pay taxes. One reason the bailout is morally wrong is that it is a regressive tax. It takes from the (relatively) poor and gives to the (relatively) rich.

Are you saying that it is morally wrong to take money from relatively rich people to give to relatively poor, but not the other way around? I think any (Government) wealth redistribution is morally wrong, but that's just my 2 cents!

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#84
The bottom line, if Detroit wants money it needs to justify why it's not just going to sink it into the same failed structure it currently has.

Mitt makes some excellent points, it's not that we shouldn't support this industry, we should just do it with consideration and some sensible caveats.

Personally this argument goes for Wall Street as well. Not that it's something Mr Paulson seems to understand.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#85

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?mo...

You are claiming that they are making 10x as much as a Denny's worker, before their benefits? They make $28 an hour before benefits (about 3 or 4x a Denny's waitress after tips). Including benefits they are making $41 an hour. That is still no where near your crazy ass 10x number, especially considering that you can hardly claim their pensions are worth the full $7 as there is a significant chance these companies will go bankrupt and they won't ever see it. If the market could sell employees an annuity in exchange (assuming the bankrupcy risk for itself), it would probably only offer a few cents on the dollar.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#86

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family di…

You're talking like his job was an entitlement. Companies go bust and people lose jobs, it happens a lot.

The reason people are talking UAW workers that way, is not because they begrudge the individual worker like your father - they don't.

It's because the car companies were not allowed to fire or lay off people as they wished, which gives a very strong impression of entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers that no one else in america has.

If you got rid of that, and allowed car companies to hire and fire and set wages as they desired, people wouldn't be so opposed to the bailout. Personally I would support the bailout only if the company became non-union. So long as they stay unionized they will never survive, and the bailout will be wasted money.

As a whole UAW was very destructive to the auto business - not allowing a company to fire people, or change wages, is a great way to destroy a company - and they succeeded.

100 miles each way? That's about 4 hours of driving each day, add in overtime, and there's nothing left to your day. Why not find a closer job?

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post smacks of jealousy. What is wrong with zero deductible healthcare? I don't fault someone for trying to climb society's ladder. I want everyone in America to be able to earn a living wage. Being in a union doesn't make one lazy or overpaid. How do you over pay someone anyway? Who deems what a job is worth to society? It is very unfortunate that the big three made the agreements they did, but they made them.…

Person A, a waitress at Dennys, making about $8-10/hour with high deductible health care. Person B, an auto worker at GM, making $30-40/hour with zero deductible health care. [edit: see response to this post, auto worker gets $73/hour.] The bailout: tax person A in order to help person B, with 3 large corporations taking a cut of the proceeds. Does this make any sense? Incidentally, the original poster did not descri…

The education person A's kids get along with the disproportionate share of SS/medicare benefits they get already mean they net gain from the tax system. So it is hardly fair to say:

>The bailout: tax person A in order to help person B

At least pick a person A who is net-net being taxed.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#88
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the average UAW salary is around $73 an hour. But the executives are far worse and totally undeserving of any taxpayer help: "While Uncle Sam debates a $25 billion rescue for the country's automakers, some 9,000 GM managers continue to enjoy one of the industry's best perks - a new car every six months for $250 a month, with repairs and insurance included. And they can write off gas on their expenses." http:…

Can you site that $73/hour wage? A cursory glance around the internet indicated something around $30/hr as of last year. The only places I saw $73 were other forums, but maybe they all have a common, legit source.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?mo...

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#89

I think we should allow the car companies to form a union. They can collectively agree that unless every single auto worker accepts $10/hour and no benefits, they all fire everybody. It would be very interesting to see how this works out.

Since workers don't have the right to perform secondary strikes, why should automakers?

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#90

one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…

This post smacks of jealousy. What is wrong with zero deductible healthcare? I don't fault someone for trying to climb society's ladder. I want everyone in America to be able to earn a living wage. Being in a union doesn't make one lazy or overpaid. How do you over pay someone anyway? Who deems what a job is worth to society? It is very unfortunate that the big three made the agreements they did, but they made them.…

You mean envy, not jealousy:

Ordinary language tends to conflate envy and jealousy. The philosophical consensus is that these are distinct emotions.[2] While it is linguistically acceptable to say that one is jealous upon hearing about another's vacation, say, it has been plausibly argued that one is feeling envy, if either, in such a case. Both envy and jealousy are three-place relations; but this superficial similarity conceals an important difference. Jealousy involves three parties, the subject, the rival, and the beloved; and the jealous person's real locus of concern is the beloved—the person whose affection he is losing or fears losing—not his rival. Whereas envy is a two party relation, with a third relatum that is a good (albeit a good that could be a particular person's affections); and the envious person's locus of concern is the rival.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/envy/

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