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Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

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Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#241

Post by janneke »

spookie wrote: post #235
effie wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple filesystems - those oriented at speed, without integrity checking, compression, encryption and raid-like features. Which are extremely useful and desirable in a filesystem. When people tried to do a full-featured filesystem, with a remarkable exception (ZFS) it's either a disappointing unfinished mess (btrfs) or a promising, but a long-term project taking years (bcachefs). Making a filesystem with strong suppo…

I'm sorry, as I keep hearing these criticisms around BTRFS, I still don't know why. What is so messy about it? Honest question

Have you tried reading the code? It's twice as large (107KLOC) as ext4 (45KLOC), where ext4 is viewed as a natural evolution of ext2 (7KLOC).

45KLOC of C code already sounds really scary to me, although yeah, journaling is really nice to have.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#242

Post by qubex »

al_be_back wrote: post #214

the OS wars haven't been conclusive. Windows had the lead until about 15yrs ago when suddenly iPhone arrived and it propelled apple/Mac (and by association Linux) back into the game. in recent years the rise in popularity of CLI, microservices (APIs for everything) and remote working/collaborating is indicative of a market shift, away from monolithic, centralized systems and providers (Cloud aside). Security + Privac…

> apple/Mac (and by association Linux)

You mean Android?

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#243

Post by kjs3 »

adastra22 wrote: post #187
davidw wrote: post #45

An idea from the 'Crossing the Chasm' book is to find a niche where whatever characteristics of the product you're working on can win. You are not going to win going head to head with the entrenched competitors. What does that look like for Hurd?

I don’t know enough about Hurd to say, but as an example MINUX found its niche as the control software for Intel’s management system. As a result MINUX is/was more widely deployed than Linux for a few years. Still might be.

I would argue that MINIX being used by one company for one application that isn't visible to users and doesn't (as far as I know) contribute any code back to the wider MINIX community (which is a thing) means it really isn't in the same conversation with Linux and *BSD. YMMV.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#244

Post by janneke »

darksaints wrote: post #239
janneke wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNU is not an ecosystem (see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.en.html#Ecosys... >), it's a philosophy. Yes, it's old. Yes, there's only little interest. Yes, there are _still_ many technical problems. The interesting thing here is that technical problems can be solved, and will be solved given enough time. Heck, I've heard rumors that even Windows does not crash multiple times a day anymore. Focussing an…

The biggest success that GNU has had is that they made it incredibly unpopular to keep source code proprietary and closed. It is no longer necessary to limit yourself to just the GNU OS in order to enjoy limitless freedom of computing. And popularity might be a double edged sword, but double edged swords are still useful if you're careful.

That's a great compliment as I think the core vision of GNU is that all software should be free (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.en.html>).

Although keeping software proprietary or writing proprietary software may have become somewhat unpopular in some niches (I'm not sure it's incredible unpopular seeing how many people and institutions still use and often advocate Apple, MicroSoft, use FaceBook, WhatsApp, whatsnot...), I'm not yet convinced that many people (say more than 1%) really believe that all software should be free and act on that?

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#245

Post by predictabl3 »

LambdaComplex wrote: post #226
sharperguy wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are missing the point of being asked here. If "fun" and "idological reasons" are the reason there is a community around the project, then that is in fact the answer to the question, if a little vague. For people still not understanding, it would be nice to have an explanation of what people find fun about it, especially as a user and not a developer, and what ideological reason exactly are driving it.

I'm glad someone gets it. I've been using Linux as my daily driver for about a decade at this point. I can understand the desire to hack on that for fun, because doing so would actually bring about a tangible improvement to my life. I find the desire to work on a 30 year old operating system that still lacks USB support much more confusing.

Again, no one is saying that everyone should care about Hurd. This just feels like an entire subthread about a strawman. I think your stance is entirely reasonable, and one I resonate with, but it felt like you expected Hurd enthusiasts to convince you that you should care. Which feels like missing the point, to me, at least.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#246

Post by sockaddr »

qubex wrote: post #242
al_be_back wrote: post #214

the OS wars haven't been conclusive. Windows had the lead until about 15yrs ago when suddenly iPhone arrived and it propelled apple/Mac (and by association Linux) back into the game. in recent years the rise in popularity of CLI, microservices (APIs for everything) and remote working/collaborating is indicative of a market shift, away from monolithic, centralized systems and providers (Cloud aside). Security + Privac…

> apple/Mac (and by association Linux) You mean Android?

I read that as macOS and iOS BSD making other Unix-like OS’s more relevant due to general compatibility and style of interaction (CLI).

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#247

Post by kjs3 »

pengaru wrote: post #18
pshirshov wrote: post #6

Is it really alive? No SMP, no stable x64 port. No ARM port.

I used to idle in the hurd irc channel and there was definitely someone working on smp support, but it was just one person's pet project apparently. They seemed to have things working in an experimental setting, but I don't think anything landed upstream. It was clear there's a severe lack of manpower on the project. I think it'd have to be rewritten in rust or something hip to get new blood today.

Most microkernel junkies saw the limitation in Mach two decades ago and have moved on to things like seL4. Far more dynamic and innovative world.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#248

Post by kjs3 »

dralley wrote: post #118
mschuster91 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Syscall latency also is not the end-all-be-all of performance. That depends on what you're doing. If you're running some digital signage display or whatever, no one cares about a missing display frame or whatever. But if you're running a car's HUD or, worse, its steering system, you absolutely need the execution time guarantees or your code won't make it past certification.

I'm not saying it's not an important space, because it is. But the majority of use cases are not that latency-sensitive. And if you're not that latency-sensitive, it's not obvious that microkernels like SeL4 and QNX are faster than Linux, for the relevant definitions of faster. And likely it's not even close when you take into consideration the capability gap between Linux and competitors, that is to say, the "fatnes…

And the goalpost moves again.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#249

Post by prmoustache »

jacquesm wrote: post #73

Once upon a time the Hurd was the future. But that time is long in the past and nowadays the Hurd is a relic and I don't see any chance of a revival. Something entirely new probably stands a better chance at arousing some interest than the Hurd.

Yes we have seen it with projects such as serenityOS, redox but if you look closely at those projects most of them stand upright with just 1 or 2 developers. If for some reason they get burned out or some life changes force them to limit their time and attention to these projects they can fall behind very very quickly.

Unless one is already depending on it on a daily basis, nobody wants to take over someone else's project.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#250

Post by taeric »

klodolph wrote: post #238
taeric wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say they were being dishonest, I said it feels dishonest. Consider it a critique of the message with my reasoning given. I was actually trying to find the numbers myself, and it was surprisingly more involved than I'd care for. I didn't want to give someone else more work, but happy to see the numbers expanded. I stand by my criticism, though. It feels off. If you want to say it is justified, spend more effo…

> I didn't say they were being dishonest, I said it feels dishonest. The phrase “it feels” is not carte blanche to say what you want. I could say, “Someone reading this post might think that you’re an axe murderer.” Certainly not me, I don’t think you’re an axe murderer. But someone reading this post might think so. What this does is introduce a new topic of conversation—that topic is you , and whether you’re an axe…

This form of rhetoric for criticism is silly, though. For one, you are giving no charity to the side of my conversation. For two, you have to take it to the absurd caricature of claiming that others think someone is an axe murderer to try and make your point. Literally a type of rhetorical fallacy.

I flat out feel it is dishonest, in the vein that it is cherry picked data to further support a point that they agree with. Such that, using "this is a casual conversation" as a rubrik, I absolutely call BS from people when they say stuff like this to me.

If this was a "town square debate" where the conversation is partisan and folks are trying to score points, I'd agree with your assertion a bit more. But for casual conversation specifically, I ultimately reject this view.

Now, if the poster is specifically offended, I'm more than willing to apologize on that and to clarify my point. I had no ill things to say about the poster or the main topic. Heavily critical of cherry picked data, with a justification of why.

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