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Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

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Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#231

Post by darksaints »

themerone wrote: post #176
darksaints wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've known for decades that on paper, microkernels and Hurd should be superior, and I've wondered for nearly as long why then they aren't taking off. If they're so good, they should at least be thriving in some niche where that performance matters, shouldn't they? They (microkernels) thrive in Automobiles, Aircraft, Spacecraft, Security systems (such as hardware encryption devices), Defense Munitions, Embedded Devi…

Who's used QNX in automotive for anything other than infotainment? A lot of people seem to think it's being used for vehicle control systems, but I've never been presented with a credible evidence of widespread use in production vehicles.

BMW, Ford, GM, Honda, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, and Volkswagen are all users of QNX’s safety-certified versions, which I would assume means more than just infotainment.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#232

Post by janneke »

darksaints wrote: post #229
mcv wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Linux is too big for embedded systems. I completely understand that. But I was hoping they'd also be viable for general purpose computers. That's certainly what Tannenbaum argued back in the day. Or could they work if only people would stop focusing on Hurd? Is Hurd a dead end? Or is GNU the real problem and should we abandon that?

I think Hurd is fixable from a functionality standpoint, but I think it is a dead end from a sociocultural standpoint. It’s old, boring, and has never worked well in its entire history, why would anybody think they could be the one that makes the difference? Nobody cares about it anymore, it’s the kernel that almost tanked the GNU ecosystem before it was saved by Linux. Out of all of the microkernels out there, the o…

GNU is not an ecosystem (see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.en.html#Ecosys...>), it's a philosophy.

Yes, it's old. Yes, there's only little interest. Yes, there are _still_ many technical problems.

The interesting thing here is that technical problems can be solved, and will be solved given enough time. Heck, I've heard rumors that even Windows does not crash multiple times a day anymore.

Focussing and working on what is popular will most likely create a world that is less free every year. Some people rather work on something that seems right and promises a better, freer future. Even if it's not popular (right now), even if it has a high probability of failure.

Popularity is a very volatile property...

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#233

Post by spookie »

LambdaComplex wrote: post #226
sharperguy wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are missing the point of being asked here. If "fun" and "idological reasons" are the reason there is a community around the project, then that is in fact the answer to the question, if a little vague. For people still not understanding, it would be nice to have an explanation of what people find fun about it, especially as a user and not a developer, and what ideological reason exactly are driving it.

I'm glad someone gets it. I've been using Linux as my daily driver for about a decade at this point. I can understand the desire to hack on that for fun, because doing so would actually bring about a tangible improvement to my life. I find the desire to work on a 30 year old operating system that still lacks USB support much more confusing.

As far as my understanding goes, there are 2 main reasons: 1. The very specific nature of the OS, which aims to be (in theory) very modular 2. You need to partake on a very clear idea of what software freedom means, in every sense of the word

I don't use Hurd, but I do get it. I feel it's quite simple.

Just because it isn't there yet doesn't mean one wouldn't want to hack on it from time to time

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#234

Post by spookie »

pjmlp wrote: post #195
davidw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, it found a "niche": people could actually hack on it and get it to do stuff, rather than waiting around for the other thing, which wasn't even really a thing yet anyway. Linux has a large, large established user base at this point. If you want to attract people to a different platform, you need a compelling reason. For people just looking to look/experiment/learn/play, 'something new' that's more easily understo…

Going off base, as this is about Hurd vs GNU/Linux. On the IoT space it seems like not everyone is keen in having to deal with GPL and Linux, hence the myriad of FOSS MIT/Apache licensed OSSes that now exist. Zephyr, NuttX, Mbed, Amazon RTOS, Redox, Tock... And then there still the commercial alternatives.

To be completely honest, there are people against the GPL just about everywhere. For the same reasons, there are also people just about anywhere that do find value in the GPL.

The license is there for a reason, and its working.

As for "competitors", that's pretty cool :)

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#235

Post by spookie »

effie wrote: post #172
JohnFen wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Filesystems tend not to be all that complex to implement.

Simple filesystems - those oriented at speed, without integrity checking, compression, encryption and raid-like features. Which are extremely useful and desirable in a filesystem. When people tried to do a full-featured filesystem, with a remarkable exception (ZFS) it's either a disappointing unfinished mess (btrfs) or a promising, but a long-term project taking years (bcachefs). Making a filesystem with strong suppo…

I'm sorry, as I keep hearing these criticisms around BTRFS, I still don't know why. What is so messy about it? Honest question

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#236

Post by klodolph »

taeric wrote: post #178
klodolph wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since, per the application, the data may have been passed off to the driver with a successful message pass. The application already knows that the data is not guaranteed to be delivered, or even sent at all. That’s just the nature of network programming—it’s inherently unreliable. > And if I have to have secrets in the driver for it to be able to connect to access points and such, it seems dubious how protected fro…

Applications are usually written to know that anything sent over the network could be lost. You don't usually do the same for sending to the different devices. Are you expecting retry logic in all places sending to a device? We /could/ turn all computation into remote procedure calls. There is plenty of precedence that that will not end well. You do it where you have to. Not everywhere. And fair point on the device l…

> Applications are usually written to know that anything sent over the network could be lost.

Generally they are—when you make an HTTP request, the client waits until it receives an HTTP response before it reports success.

> We /could/ turn all computation into remote procedure calls. There is plenty of precedence that that will not end well. You do it where you have to. Not everywhere.

I think you may be having some kind of a different conversation here. I don’t understand your position, and I don’t think you understand mine.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#237

Post by JohnFen »

effie wrote: post #172
JohnFen wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Filesystems tend not to be all that complex to implement.

Simple filesystems - those oriented at speed, without integrity checking, compression, encryption and raid-like features. Which are extremely useful and desirable in a filesystem. When people tried to do a full-featured filesystem, with a remarkable exception (ZFS) it's either a disappointing unfinished mess (btrfs) or a promising, but a long-term project taking years (bcachefs). Making a filesystem with strong suppo…

Filesystems aren't complex to implement -- even complex filesystems.

What's harder is making them as robust as they need to be for practical daily use. Doing that is a matter of comprehensive testing, though. With filesystems, the hard part is QA, not implementation.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#238

Post by klodolph »

taeric wrote: post #48
klodolph wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm very open to that debate, but then show it. Exclude the drivers from the numbers. To do otherwise feels very dishonest. You can ask for numbers without casting aspersions like that. This is HN. It is something like a casual conversation. You are free to ask for numbers, other people are free to provide or not provide them, and we should be able to have this conversation without leveling accusations of dishonest…

I didn't say they were being dishonest, I said it feels dishonest. Consider it a critique of the message with my reasoning given. I was actually trying to find the numbers myself, and it was surprisingly more involved than I'd care for. I didn't want to give someone else more work, but happy to see the numbers expanded. I stand by my criticism, though. It feels off. If you want to say it is justified, spend more effo…

> I didn't say they were being dishonest, I said it feels dishonest.

The phrase “it feels” is not carte blanche to say what you want.

I could say, “Someone reading this post might think that you’re an axe murderer.” Certainly not me, I don’t think you’re an axe murderer. But someone reading this post might think so. What this does is introduce a new topic of conversation—that topic is you, and whether you’re an axe murderer. I’ve done it without saying anything untrue. It is literally true, that someone reading this post might think that you’re an axe murderer. That has much the same effect as an accusation, but I’ve given you no real way to respond.

When you write “it feels”, there is an implied subject, who is feeling those feelings. That subject is you.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#239

Post by darksaints »

janneke wrote: post #232
darksaints wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Hurd is fixable from a functionality standpoint, but I think it is a dead end from a sociocultural standpoint. It’s old, boring, and has never worked well in its entire history, why would anybody think they could be the one that makes the difference? Nobody cares about it anymore, it’s the kernel that almost tanked the GNU ecosystem before it was saved by Linux. Out of all of the microkernels out there, the o…

GNU is not an ecosystem (see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.en.html#Ecosys... >), it's a philosophy. Yes, it's old. Yes, there's only little interest. Yes, there are _still_ many technical problems. The interesting thing here is that technical problems can be solved, and will be solved given enough time. Heck, I've heard rumors that even Windows does not crash multiple times a day anymore. Focussing an…

The biggest success that GNU has had is that they made it incredibly unpopular to keep source code proprietary and closed. It is no longer necessary to limit yourself to just the GNU OS in order to enjoy limitless freedom of computing.

And popularity might be a double edged sword, but double edged swords are still useful if you're careful.

Re: Gnu/Hurd strikes back: How to use the legendary OS in a (somewhat) practical way

#240

Post by qubex »

harry8 wrote: post #216
davidw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, it found a "niche": people could actually hack on it and get it to do stuff, rather than waiting around for the other thing, which wasn't even really a thing yet anyway. Linux has a large, large established user base at this point. If you want to attract people to a different platform, you need a compelling reason. For people just looking to look/experiment/learn/play, 'something new' that's more easily understo…

I think you missed the point of that comment completely. Which market segment does linux not totally dominate nowadays? Phones, big servers, embedded devices, HPC... Maybe you could argue desktops? Maybe? Still a very signficant player there however you dice it. Going back to Linus' original email announcement then apply your framework and you don't predict linux competing anywhere let alone dominating everywhere. Ho…

The fact that Linux dominates does not entail that other architectural approaches may be more suitable for the task. Variety is the spice of life and the “Linux monoculture” might not be such a great thing. BeOS/Haiku, Plan9/Inferno, OS400, and Fuchisa are all fascinating lineages that excel in their chosen domains.
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