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I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

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Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#521

Post by getwiththeprog »

NovaDudely wrote: post #329
emerongi wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in Europe and most doctors just want to get you out of the office. I've met only a few doctors who actually care and will work with you to figure out the issue. The equivalent in software engineering would be waiting for my client to tell me what line to change in what file. To be fair, doctors are usually overworked and on a human level I understand that the system is a bit broken, but it's still infuriating wh…

The internal term is "Treat and street". Get them out on the street as quick as possible .

You got the street - the treat is some yummy meds.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#522

Post by matheusmoreira »

taberiand wrote: post #512
matheusmoreira wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Local models integrated into EMR systems could be a great tool for doctors but not ChatGPT. I really don't recommend feeding confidential medical information into a corporation's computer. At least doctors are ethically obligated to maintain confidentiality.

To be clear, I'm just using ChatGPT as a (slightly tongue in cheek) shorthand for LLMs in general, but I do think there is a large potential for them within medicine. They are so unreasonably effective for being, fundamentally, word predictors.

> I do think there is a large potential for them within medicine

As do I.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#523

Post by lampshades »

My dad is a dentist and he’s talked about how in his younger days he was more aggressive with his treatment and as he got older and understood more, he became less aggressive and more of a “wait and see what happens”. He’s mentioned that he commonly sees aggressiveness in treatment with younger dentists.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#525

Post by matheusmoreira »

sethammons wrote: post #509
taberiand wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And much like software development, it will all soon be done by ChatGPT.

ChatGPT correctly identified my wife's condition in a couple seconds when a dozen doctors failed to for over a decade. Less than half a percent of people suffer from this condition, but enough do that doctors should have thought about it. All I did was write down the symptoms and poof. It was actually really frustrating that doctors were mystified but this tech gave us a new (and ultimately correct) path of inquiry.…

It took four years after graduation for me to obtain enough knowledge and training to help my own mother with her chronic pain. I literally did not know what to do until relatively recently. Other doctors didn't either and they tried everything.

I also nearly died myself about 2 years ago. Appendicitis of all things. Unusual presentation. I didn't see it. Surgeons didn't see it. Gastroenterologists didn't see it. Ultrasounds were inconclusive. I couldn't believe it when I saw the CT scan. I underwent surgery. Twice. The infection would not go away despite 5 intravenous antibiotics 24/7. They wanted to operate a third time and I became convinced I would die if I went under the knife again. Then they somehow managed to fly in an interventional radiologist who found and drained a few abscesses. 40 days I was at the hospital.

I feel so grateful to be alive.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#526

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #228
basisword wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I’m not a conspiracy nut. I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision). I believe in modern medicine. But that experience shook me and forever changed my trust in the dental industry. Ask anybody who’s experienced a “chronic” illness about the “experts” and they’ll tell you a tale or two. The experts are great until they have a case that is unusual. The don’t have the time or know…

This is very true. I had a SO with severe chronic gastric pain and they got passed around by doctors for years. One jerk wrote "drug seeking behavior" into her file and that made things even worse. Finally someone took her seriously, got imagery done, and discovered surgery was necessary. In US healthcare you have to be your own advocate and be willing to push. The system breaks down if you don't have a routine and o…

I had a sudden onset of extreme pain 2 years and 3 months ago. I've seen 13 doctors in this time, had 2 major surgeries and lots of different therapies, and this one of my main takeaways. In our system, you are forced to become a "general contractor" of your health. I understand the nature of my problem, and I've had a lot of improvement, but I'm still nailing down the particular patholog(ies). The doctors that stand out are the ones who take the time to review your records, and come to the appointment prepared. I've had two. I blame the insurance companies for extracting more and more profit from the system, causing doctors to spend just as little time as possible on, you know, something as silly as patients.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#527

Post by atraac »

Waterluvian wrote: post #47

My son when 3 had a fall and a few teeth were bent. Went to our local dentist who mostly had a wait and see opinion. But then calls a day later and says they’ve decided they should just come out. Two top front teeth. Would have no top front teeth for years. I went into engineer mode and while I acknowledged I didn’t have domain expertise, I asked questions and probed the whole situation. Very unsatisfactory, meanderi…

> I believe in modern medicine. But that experience shook me and forever changed my trust in the dental industry.

This can be applied to almost everything. Looking at average software developers around, I see people with 10 years of experience who have no idea how anything works, they just copy paste the same CRUD APIs for their whole career, never really learning anything, trying to understand, just coasting through corporate life. Half of people are worse than 'average' person, this applies to everything and it's especially evident with doctors. They'll just tell you to wait and see, take vitamins or straight out ignore you. They might not know any better, or just think they know everything, you never know because you're not an expert. As an example of this I highly recommend reading Wired's article on Lee Holloway.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#528

Post by shellfishgene »

A group at ETH Zurich did this experiment in a rather elaborate way some years back [1]. They sent the same guy, who had only one very minor dental problem, to 180 (!) dentists. About 25% of them incorrectly found cavities that they said had to be taken care of, some up to 6, and some in varying teeth.

As an interesting extra they dressed him up in high and low socioeconomic status clothes (jeans, t-shirt and backpack vs. suit with Rolex and car keys) and found the "student" was 'overtreated' more than the business man. The assumption was that richer patients are more likely to get a second opinion, and thus the dentists didn't make up problems.

[1] https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3036573

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#529

Post by Fnoord »

Waterluvian wrote: post #47

My son when 3 had a fall and a few teeth were bent. Went to our local dentist who mostly had a wait and see opinion. But then calls a day later and says they’ve decided they should just come out. Two top front teeth. Would have no top front teeth for years. I went into engineer mode and while I acknowledged I didn’t have domain expertise, I asked questions and probed the whole situation. Very unsatisfactory, meanderi…

In The Netherlands, going for a second opinion is a right (under insurance). And my experience with a dentist who wanted to suddenly remove a molar (without asking me, he already had the anesthetic ready) left me bewildered. Especially since it was a dentist organization for people with anxiety. NB: I have needle phobia, but not dentist phobia. Then he started to guilt trip me cause he already grabbed the anesthetic, but I said that didn't work on me. He threatened it'd be billed, not sure whether that happened in the end but if I was consciously aware of it I wouldn't have paid. Tho I'd just lost my father and got into a long term relationship as well, so my mind was elsewhere.

Then I went to a different dentist (I had to cause I moved) and he had the wait and see approach. I didn't tell you yet that I had a chronic inflammation (abscess) under the molar. A year or so later, I finally went to the dental stomatologist and he suggested oxazepam. What an experience (both the drug and the removal of the inflammation). Then the healing process came. And I even had some stomach pains from all the ibuprofen (too long w/o stomach protector). Ever since that I always use a stomach protector with ibuprofen, just to be sure. No stomach protector, no ibuprofen.

We were very happy with this dentist. Since it became a bit too impractical we now are at yet another dentist who's in our neighborhood and literally next to our kid's school. Very practical, but we were happier with the previous dentist.

Now our 3 year old has damage on all 4 of his milk canines, having damaged tooth enamel. We don't know what or why, only difference I can tell with his older sister is he's been going on with breastfeeding longer, and he liked chewing on stuff more than her (his teeth and mouth also have a bit different form; more my wife's than mine). The rest seems fine. The dentist guilt tripped us into that I'd probably not been brushing his teeth well enough (because of COVID my wife was waiting with our daughter, she'd have given him a firm reply but I just listened and took it in), but I'm pretty sure we did this correct (perhaps too well?); twice a day since his first tooth showed up. So I'm considering going for a second opinion.

The beauty is my kids are freely insured for teeth until their 18th in The Netherlands, after that they're on their own. But until then, the government takes care of their costs. I know it ain't like that in certain other (even rich) countries.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#530

Post by wredue »

bennettnate5 wrote: post #410
wredue wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. I mean, the wait times sometimes are, but they vary by province. More conservative provinces have worse wait times. That is not surprising given that the provincial conservative government are all actively attempting to sabotage public healthcare so we can move to an American style system. A system where we will all pay more, and still see similar wait times anyway. MAID is not actively proposed as…

> More conservative provinces have worse wait times. This feels like a pretty glaring generalization. If we look at the actual data, the story becomes a little more nuanced [1]. "Conservative" provinces have wait times that are a couple of days to a couple of weeks higher than national average (assuming we call BC, AB, SK and MB "conservative" [2]), but then again almost all of the maritimes provinces (which are cons…

AB, SK and MB are conservative with high rates of Trump flags.

And nice lies dude. They all have over double the national average!

Don’t use Fraser institute for sources. They are a far right “think” tank. If they posted it, it’s a lie or misrepresentation.

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