Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 211 posts

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#201

Post by kragen »

extraduder_ire wrote: post #195
kragen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd be surprised if lead-acid batteries produce detectable quantities of hydrogen sulfide; isn't their sulfur bound up in an extremely stable oxoanion? still, https://web.archive.org/web/20161005164308/http://www.wesh.c... certainly doesn't sound like sulfuric acid

Humans are _very_ sensitive to the smell of H2S. Unless you meant that it might produce enough to kill your sense of smell, which is possible.

no, i meant i don't understand how you get from sulfate to prussiate at room temperature

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#202

Post by AtlasBarfed »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #179
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only real practical version of this would be an additional range extension battery that is towed. Or synthfuel+generator, or even hydrogen (and man, this is like the ONLY time I ever can see practical use of hydrogen). Which is also an effective strategy for semis / RVs / towing with EVs. The way to get best range+efficiency out of an EV these days is cell-to-pack where the pack is basically integrated into the f…

Yes, frame-integrated cells are optimal from a bang/buck standpoint. However, the advantages gained by using standardized swappable batteries would be overwhelmingly dominant in comparison. If someone doesn't immediately and intuitively get that -- and you're hardly alone in that respect -- I've found that no rational, math-based argument will persuade them. The ship has sailed, your side won, and now we all get to d…

Well with the "cushion" afforded by high density cells, the replacement standard may come back, or at least make it a reasonable repair.

The point is that to compete with ICE, you need the extreme integration to break the ICE point-of-sale cost advantage. I agree in a perfect world a swap would be so nice to have as an option, if only for a cheap repair or upgrade as you point out.

I think the other problem was economics. You buy an EV, a massive component of the cost is the battery, yet you might get a lemon battery next time you swap, and then the "swap service" refuses to accept it back. Yes the battery could be a service and never explicitly owned...

Also, it is hard to imagine such a massive component being swapped without extreme wear / damage on the swap site. Sure theoretically it should be solvable, but real world? people freak out over microscopic paint chips.

IIRC Teslas were originally designed to be swappable in some manner. But it was never done.

The other thing is that it will likely happen with semis I would guess, which have longer lifespans and invested value in the actual equipment.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#203

Post by CamperBob2 »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #202
CamperBob2 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, frame-integrated cells are optimal from a bang/buck standpoint. However, the advantages gained by using standardized swappable batteries would be overwhelmingly dominant in comparison. If someone doesn't immediately and intuitively get that -- and you're hardly alone in that respect -- I've found that no rational, math-based argument will persuade them. The ship has sailed, your side won, and now we all get to d…

Well with the "cushion" afforded by high density cells, the replacement standard may come back, or at least make it a reasonable repair. The point is that to compete with ICE, you need the extreme integration to break the ICE point-of-sale cost advantage. I agree in a perfect world a swap would be so nice to have as an option, if only for a cheap repair or upgrade as you point out. I think the other problem was econo…

I think the other problem was economics. You buy an EV, a massive component of the cost is the battery, yet you might get a lemon battery next time you swap, and then the "swap service" refuses to accept it back. Yes the battery could be a service and never explicitly owned...

That's always been the most frustrating point to argue against, I think. Batteries can be insanely well instrumented. You can tell exactly how much charge has been sent into the battery and pulled out of it. You can tell how old it is, and you can tell how many charge/discharge cycles it has undergone. When you get a 'lemon', you are not going to have a hard time convincing the refill station that (a) the battery isn't delivering the stated performance; and (b) whatever is wrong with it isn't your fault.

There is no reason any normal human being should feel any pride of ownership towards a car battery. No reason on God's green earth. It is no different from the propane grill cylinders you swap out at the grocery store, except that with the battery you can see its entire service history courtesy of the embedded controller. Like those propane cylinders, the batteries will indeed look pretty shopworn after a few months/years in the field. So? You pay for the gas you use, and you pay for the charge you move. That should be the extent of your relationship with a battery, IMO.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#204

Post by tooltalk »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #164
gorjusborg wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there EV skeptics? I don't think so. There are average people and EV fanboys. It's just that fanboys call the other people skeptics. EVs are in early adoption still, from my point of view. Try to pump it all you want, but EVs offer far less utility for a higher price, and they are more inconvenient. Until the industry standardizes on batteries and stations offer pre-charged battery swaps, I'll hang on to my ICE m…

EVs are quieter, smoother, higher torque, better accelerating, for simpler drivetrain, less maintenance. I've seen so many TCO reports on Teslas being cheaper than new ICE cars, and that was before the Tesla price cuts and the insane inflation in new car costs in ICE. As for the "new car cost", I suspect Tesla is already at cost-per-vehicle parity with an ICE, but Tesla is keeping a high margin on their cars. With so…

>> As for the "new car cost", I suspect Tesla is already at cost-per-vehicle parity with an ICE, but Tesla is keeping a high margin on their cars. You are thinking last year when the auto market was out of whack due to COVID related shortages. Tesla's operating margin is down to 9.6% in 2Q 2023; compared that to Hyundai's 9.5% and Kia's 12.5%.

>> With sodium ion and high density LFP chemistries coming to mass production this year, ICE cost advantage's days are numbered. LFPs are still limited to entry-level, low-range EVs because of low energy density and weight. The cost of LFP's is't that attractive when the price of lithium is above $20K.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#205

Post by ch_sm »

snowwrestler wrote: post #192
kd5bjo wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My primary concern with the charging infrastructure is how well it will handle a large number of people taking emergency trips at the same time. How do you evacuate south Florida with an incoming hurricane, for example, when most people have switched from gasoline to electric cars? That scenario pushes the existing fuel delivery infrastructure to its limit already, and electric chargers provide significantly fewer pa…

This is a good point and I think the answer is that solutions for in-place charging will need to be regulated or subsidized into existence in step with the shifting market share of electric cars. The typical range of a fully charged electric car these days is sufficient to get out of the way of almost any predictable natural disaster. So the trick is just keeping them all fully charged at home. Any homeowner can in t…

> There may even need to be street-side solutions. But it’s all doable and the engineering is straightforward.

That‘s true! Vienna, Austria has over a thousand street-side chargers already. They‘re tiny and right next to the parking spot.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#206

Post by imaginebit »

I remain an EV skeptic because of the flammable electrolyte in Li batteries. They did a good job of protecting the battery pack and managing possible thermal runaway. But reading some EV crash news, I noticed one aspect of EV fire is particularly frightening: the speed of the fire and thoroughness of the fire burning. If the crash is severe enough to cause fire, it's usually within 1 or 2 minutes before the fire reaches the driver seat and then it'll burn it down to skeleton and the firefighters can only stand by and wait for it to burn out.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#207

Post by specialist »

_ea1k wrote: post #103
ninkendo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also why the F150 lightning appears to be an absolute flop: Its range goes to crap when you're towing, and people who want F150's at least think of themselves as people who want to be able to tow. (Actual towing with F150's is likely low, but most people who buy one, want to have the option.)

> people who want F150's at least think of themselves as people who want to be able to tow I've only found this to be true on the internet. In the real world, it is much less common. Lots of people realize that their truck is just the commuter and home depot stuff hauler.

The real world is the domain of empiricists. Rationalists rule online.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#208

Post by hyperthesis »

machdiamonds wrote: post #143
hyperthesis wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's greyed out and hard to read.

If you use Firefox, Reader View is pretty nice.

I hadn't thought of that (though I do use FF Reader to avoid ads), though here I was thinking of a writer selecting a blogging platform.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#209

Post by dangus »

rawgabbit wrote: post #200
snowwrestler wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point and I think the answer is that solutions for in-place charging will need to be regulated or subsidized into existence in step with the shifting market share of electric cars. The typical range of a fully charged electric car these days is sufficient to get out of the way of almost any predictable natural disaster. So the trick is just keeping them all fully charged at home. Any homeowner can in t…

During Hurricane Rita in 2005, over 2 million Houstonians got on the road to avoid its wrath. It took anywhere from 12 to 36 hours to reach their destination. Many ran out of gas but roadside assistance were able to fuel them up and get them going again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Rita_evacuation

Well, the thing is that EVs are just “less bad” version of personal automobiles, which are a very inefficient way to get a large amount of people from one place to another.

Houston is a city that is so large that it should have frequent passenger train service to other metropolitan areas, but it doesn’t because it has been designed for cars and planes.

You can fit a lot of people in a train, and in emergencies even more people can occupy the train in standing areas.

When cars get stuck in traffic where they’re going <25mph their main flaw is revealed: the fact that you can frequently beat a car stuck in traffic using a bicycle.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#210

Post by daddylongstroke »

ultrarunner wrote: post #62
hamandcheese wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.

The Audi is 3,527 lbs, where the Model 3 is 4,048 lbs. The Tesla is a bit longer and narrower, but they're both big cars. The Rav4 FWD is 3370 lbs, where the Ionic 5 standard range FWD is about 4,000 lbs (the SEL is 4,300). If the best examples are "only 500-700 lbs heavier" I think there is still room for progress. Rounded, that's the rough 1000 lbs I suggested above. Electric cars are, in aggregate, simply heavier…

...a net benefit to society, outside of those parts of society who live in icy and snowy conditions a good chunk of the year. In these circumstances, we appreciate the extra weight.
Post reply on HN