Live data from Hacker News

Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

apnews.com

101–110 of 176 posts

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helps with accessibility, not with the problem that cashless is dangerous for democracy. Everytime you pay anything with something else than cash, it is recorded: the amount, the time, the place, and the nature of the thing you buy. There is no way to go to a gay bar (or another place loaded with consequences) without a trace. And this is needed for human dignity. There is way to support a controversial political…

> There is no way to go to a gay bar (or another place loaded with consequences) without a trace. And this is needed for human dignity. We should remember that this is also true about phones.

You can leave your phone at home and go to a bar no problem. If you can't pay for drinks, that's a problem.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen that vibe. In my experience, communism-was-better generally crystalizes out to two things: * Good old times / not remembering the bad parts. * Having your path in life mapped out, i.e. not dealing with uncertainty.

>Good old times / not remembering the bad parts. Probably because the "bad parts" never applied to them since they had the right socio-economic background (connections to the party), and they knew how to game the system so that it worked in their favor (did no actual work but were reaping the rewards). >Having your path in life mapped out, i.e. not dealing with uncertainty. Because after the fall of communism a huge…

In short, the post-fall countries transitioned to Kleptocracies more than anything else. The transition to capitalism was very spotty and state run businesses existed for a long time after the fall (and in many cases many businesses are still state run and have yet to transition).

Out of the 200M+ [1] people in the USSR, what percentage would you say had connections to the party? My impression is that 99% (all but 2M) likely did not.

Hence, the "bad" parts did apply to plenty of people and those are the people we are talking about. My experience is from living half a decade in a post-fall country from 1995 to 2000. The people I talked to that missed communism often now had it bad and were left behind. In essence the average quality of life was worse under the USSR but the extremes in quality of life were less - nobody was fully left behind as they are now. There was a very certain social net that was there. On the flip side, with less extremes, there was very little opportunity for advancement, so you wind up with a relatively homogeneously poor but not impoverished society. Post-fall, poverty rates jumped (from extremely low to very high), the homogeneously poor society was still poor and the safety net was completely removed (without any of the upsides of non-communism yet to be felt; it's a decades long process to change an economy from the USSR system).

> unregulated capitalism

The only unregulated capitalism's out there are black markets. The capitalism of countries in transition post-fall were largely capitalism in name only. Kleptocracy is AFAIK far more accurate of how to describe those transitional governments that still exist today (Belorussia, Russia, Georgia, the central Asian republics are all examples that exist today)

> as well a huge amount of people fell victims to various Ponzi/pyramid/get-rich-quick schemes that were common in the west 100 years earlier but were new here

Is there somewhere I can read more about this? My impression is the governments switched to democracies in name only. Huge portions of government were there to siphon as much as they could for their own personal gain. Want a drivers license? Pay a bribe. Want a building permit? Pay ten bribes? Want to move your grain to a port terminal? Pay a bribe at every city you pass through. (The very latter is a real example, I was very loosely involved with a post-fall USDA project that looked at that problem. Notably identifying, "Hey, here is your problem - the bribes. By the time a farmer has gotten their grain to port they've payed more in bribes than their base cost - this will not work!"

[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Population_of_former...

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is fiat currency not another case of "the worst solution except for all the other ones we've tried?" Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency#Debasement ). And as noted, transacting in ingots of the precious metals isn't practical. Also heavy and hard to securely store and transport. Trying to transact in and hold a commodity…

>Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased Well, yes, but it's harder to play games with, which makes it more stable. It's similar to making the argument that while Windows is less secure than Linux, Linux also has security issues, so we should just have everybody use Windows. We have ample evidence that the caretakers of our money supply are, shall we say, less than diligent.…

> Well, yes, but it's harder to play games with, which makes it more stable.

Gold might be better at average value performance over time than fiat currencies which are actively managed for stability and a bias toward slight value decline, but its very definitely not more stable than major fiat currencies.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Europe, I have the feeling the vast majority of people consider it unnecessary. The vibe I get is "The system works, so why not let the government handle and control everything.". > I wouldn't be surprised if that is a golbal phenomena and holds steady throughout time. Come to the east of EU/Europe and you'll see a completely opposite vibe. No wonder, people in their 40s still remember communism. And the ol…

This dichotomy was made extremely apparent to me during the pandemic. In the US, not saying all opinions were homogenous but most of my liberal friends supported government actions during the pandemic (e.g. closures originally, then mask mandates, vaccine mandates, etc.) I'm friends with a number of folks from Eastern Europe, a couple of whom spent their early childhood under Ceausescu, and the difference couldn't ha…

What really sucks is that I can't say anybody is wrong for being skeptical of a government, insofar as any large organization with power over individuals is dangerous. But the critical mistake they are making is that this doesn't mean a government action can't be good. Coordinating public health responses is probably one of the most good government actions possible, and it was vilified for political power.

In my mind, it's analogous to a starving rural person saying they should have their hunting rifle melted down (condemning them to likely death) because lots of people have been unjustly murdered by assault rifles. Yes, guns are dangerous - they're powerful, and power is dangerous. So we recognize that there can be abuses of the power of guns (and governments), and we already have guardrails against some of the most egregious abuses - very few people argue citizens should have free access to heavy machine guns and missile launchers. What we argue about is where we should draw the line between usefulness vs risk of abuse of abuse. And in this analogy, there are some people so scared of guns that they're saying we shouldn't even have them available as a simple hunting tool.

Bringing it back to government, people are so traumatized by government abuses, regardless of whether those abuses happened to them or even happened at all, that they're sort of arguing for the melting down of the government even when it is genuinely acting in their best interest. Except it's worse, because the anti-mask movement is not trying to actually abolish government at all, just weaponize their own fear for targeted harm.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#105
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vibe I get is "The system works, so why not let the government handle and control everything.". It works probably better than in many other places, but which European country is that?

Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Denmark are the countries with the most faithful government worshippers. It's simply a religion in those countries at this point. You'd expect Switzerland to be on that list, but in my experience the Swiss are nothing like that.

So a who's who of the top ten democracy index countries. Not really surprising considering that.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#106
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vibe I get is "The system works, so why not let the government handle and control everything.". It works probably better than in many other places, but which European country is that?

Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Denmark are the countries with the most faithful government worshippers. It's simply a religion in those countries at this point. You'd expect Switzerland to be on that list, but in my experience the Swiss are nothing like that.

I don't want to seem dismissive but the Netherlands + Sweden + Finland + Denmark Seen from outside, Switzerland has a lot of checks on government with referenda for everything, important or trivial matters.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#107
post #8

What makes cash special is that compared to other assets, it puts a bit more power into the hands of the individual and a bit less power in the hands of the government. To count or seize the individuals cash, the government has to make some fuzz. Aka send men with guns. There seems to be some divide in our world between people who consider individual power a good thing and people who consider it unnecessary. Here in…

Is fiat currency not another case of "the worst solution except for all the other ones we've tried?" Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency#Debasement ). And as noted, transacting in ingots of the precious metals isn't practical. Also heavy and hard to securely store and transport. Trying to transact in and hold a commodity…

There are some fairly obvious solutions to this. For example, suppose you had bearer securities representing shares in an investment portfolio. It wouldn't have wild price changes any more than the underlying security, which could be a highly diversified index fund or a real estate trust or whatever you like.

The bearer token has a secret in it, which you can change over the internet if you have the existing one, so if the token changes hands you can swap the secret out and be assured the previous owner hasn't kept a copy of it. Which would also allow you to transfer them over the internet.

That would make for great "cash" but not if trading in them requires you to be a securities broker or file a tax form each and every time you want to buy a pack of gum.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet millions of businesses have figured out how to make it work for the last thousand years. Cashless advocates are always talking about how "expensive" cash is, but never quantify it. Is handling cash more expensive than credit card fees, for example? If it were, businesses like supermarkets that operate on 1-2% margins wouldn't take cash. But they do. Some near me take cash freely, but charge extra to use debit…

I'm going to make a really shitty analogy because I'm bored. Cash = chamber pot / outhouse Electronic payments = modern plumbing People shat for millennia without modern plumbing. Installing and maintaining modern plumbing often requires external expertise who will wish to be paid for their services. In developed countries, the modern plumbing also needs to connect to public infrastructure and comply with a variety o…

I like your analogy, but it excludes a reason I've heard from at least a few candid bar owners in NYC: "Do you know how much money you can hide in these drawers?" Which is to say "do you have any idea how peaceful it is to use the restroom with a locking door and no security cameras?"

I'm not saying I agree with or endorse tax evasion—but some are doing it for this very reason, while others simply don't want a 3rd party to their b2c transactions (for whatever reason) and are ready and willing to lose customers who only want to pay in plastic. Some even offer the consolation ATM on-premises.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are businesses allowed to defend themselves in all states in the US these days? What will happen to thieves -- will they be released by the courts? will the police even bother to come and collect them if the businesses have caught them?

Regardless of what internet-addicted fear mongers might have you believe, the United States has not evolved into a state of lawlessness. A quick look at any local court docket shows that thieves still get caught, prosecuted, and imprisoned. Real life is very different from sensationalist internet blogspam headlines.

It depends on the value of cash/goods stolen in some states.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen that vibe. In my experience, communism-was-better generally crystalizes out to two things: * Good old times / not remembering the bad parts. * Having your path in life mapped out, i.e. not dealing with uncertainty.

>Good old times / not remembering the bad parts. Probably because the "bad parts" never applied to them since they had the right socio-economic background (connections to the party), and they knew how to game the system so that it worked in their favor (did no actual work but were reaping the rewards). >Having your path in life mapped out, i.e. not dealing with uncertainty. Because after the fall of communism a huge…

Honestly even with capitalism most of this still applies.

Those with the right connections get to basically make money off other people without having to actually do any work.

A huge portion of the population is financially illiterate and easy prey to scammers.

Ponzi/pyramid/mlm schemes still pop up to fleece people.

Post reply on HN