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Cognitive AI for ADHD

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Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#161

Post by throwaway60707 »

flir wrote: post #158
krono wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The specific set of symptoms and the diagnosis they would lead to according to the DSM, are in fact rooted in a set of interconnected structural neurological differences in the prefrontal cortex. The ability to recognise when someone might be thirsty, doesn't mean dehydration no longer exists. They go together.

> in a set of interconnected structural neurological differences in the prefrontal cortex. Can you prove that? Because my understanding is that ADHD isn't diagnosable by imaging the brain. If there was a structural difference, presumably it would show up on scans? Or at least post-mortems?

My brain exhibits significant differences on EEG that the neuro-doctor said are suggestive of ADHD or ASD.

AFAIK it is visible on fMRI, but doing so is incredibly expensive and taxing on the person - you'd need to keep them in the fMRI for very long time, repeatedly, and watch them doing different tasks.

But I've seen papers about this where they did that with some people. The brain simply doesn't fire up like a normal brain does. The structural difference itself might be too small (on cellular or even molecular level) to see with current resolution, but the effect is clearly visible - as well as that medication makes the brain behave more like normal brains, as opposed to normal brains on stimulants (which puts them into overdrive).

Quick search:

- https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/315884

- https://bmcmedimaging.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#162

Post by TeMPOraL »

lacrimacida wrote: post #154
klausa wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At some point it will become a hardened habit and honestly much better than some AI crutch. One of the symptoms of ADHD is borderline impossibility of forming habits, in the way that neurotypical people think about them.

Not true at all, and obviously im on this thread because im not neurotypical. ADHD is about misfunctioning emotional regulation and nothing to do with inability to form habits, as a matter of fact coping strategies is basically habits that work with disfunction. With ADHD I can focus extremely well, hyperfocus actually but not on the things that I find boring.

I'm strongly in the "near impossible to form habits" ADHD camp, so I agree with GP and disagree with you. Or, I guess, there are different flavors to the experience. Mine includes my mind actively resisting habit forming.

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#163

Post by throwaway60707 »

scns wrote: post #153
krono wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. The symptoms of this disorder are caused by physical differences in the brain, right there in the prefrontal cortex where those responses to inputs are generated. It sometimes happens that I just physically can't bring myself to complete some simple but important chore. That's not because I'm mentally weak, but because my ADHD brain does not provide the right amount of dopamine…

> ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. At first i wanted to disagree, then i realized why. Disorder means wrongly ordered or sickness. ADHD is classified as such, and if you want treatment, you need to get yourself diagnosed. I really dislike the pathologizing of every neurotype that deviates from the imaginary normal person. I'm pretty sure, if you look closely you'll find something "broken" in everybody. Other pe…

ADHD can also be totally debilitating and I - a person with strong ADHD - don't think this talk of "it's an advantage" is helping anyone. Yeah in very few cases there are some positives, but usually not.

In my case, I was hyper-focused on computers since I was a child, and that got me my career/business and that probably saved my life -- because I was totally unable to do anything in school and wasn't able to finish first year of high school and dropped out of it. I wouldn't call it an advantage even though it's probably the reason why I'm so good with computers.

In many cases like the CEOs you speak of, you see the surface - their success - but you ignore the problems they have in day-to-day life, the ruined childhood and the ruined relationships in adulthood. Many would trade all their success for normal life.

It's definitely a disorder. A weird one that might give you above average abilities in some very specific cases and areas of life, but still a disorder. You wouldn't say autism isn't a disorder just because there are few autistic savants.

Also consider - ADHD is much more often present in highly intelligent people. What you see might be a person that was able to overcome their disorder through their intelligence, but their life would be much better and they'd be way more successful had they not have the disorder. And now imagine how a person of average intelligence with ADHD must struggle with their life.

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#164

Post by throwaway60707 »

gmadsen wrote: post #124
krono wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. The symptoms of this disorder are caused by physical differences in the brain, right there in the prefrontal cortex where those responses to inputs are generated. It sometimes happens that I just physically can't bring myself to complete some simple but important chore. That's not because I'm mentally weak, but because my ADHD brain does not provide the right amount of dopamine…

ADHD is diagnosed by the occurance of defined symptoms. like most things in the DSM. Many things can manifest psychologically to give the collection of symptoms. Its not purely or even needs to be structural differences in the prefrontal cortex

The diagnosis is a continual process. My psychiatrist first did many questionnaires with me to determine whether it might be ADHD or something else, and then prescribed ADHD medication (first Strattera but that gave me significant side effects, now I'm on Concerta).

But this doesn't end with the prescription - I visit the doctor every 2 weeks and he continually questions me about the effects the medication has on my life, and tries to see whether it matches the expected outcome for a person with ADHD. If it did not, they would change the diagnosis.

In my case, everything fits - the stimulants make me slow down or even sleep, I'm less angry and overall more emotionally stable, less impulsive, and finally able to work on a task that I choose for an extended period of time. If this was not the case, I'm sure the doctor would be looking for a different diagnosis.

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#165

Post by flir »

throwaway60707 wrote: post #161
flir wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in a set of interconnected structural neurological differences in the prefrontal cortex. Can you prove that? Because my understanding is that ADHD isn't diagnosable by imaging the brain. If there was a structural difference, presumably it would show up on scans? Or at least post-mortems?

My brain exhibits significant differences on EEG that the neuro-doctor said are suggestive of ADHD or ASD. AFAIK it is visible on fMRI, but doing so is incredibly expensive and taxing on the person - you'd need to keep them in the fMRI for very long time, repeatedly, and watch them doing different tasks. But I've seen papers about this where they did that with some people. The brain simply doesn't fire up like a norm…

Oh, that's interesting. Thank you.

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#166

Post by rpastuszak »

btilly wrote: post #13

I have moderately severe ADHD, and have good reasons to not use medication. My first response to this is that it solves problems that I don't have, and ignores the ones I do have. Organizing my day on paper is trivial. I'm also married to someone with a good partnership, and we offload different types of tasks to each other. She might enjoy having software assistants to be more productive, but I don't need that. I ha…

> The trick for me is that it is important that my life be organized around engaging with things that I want to do.

> Yes, yes, I know the idea of eliminating distractions so that I can focus. Honestly, that's crap that leads to disasters every time I try it. If I have positive motivations to do X, distractions are easy to set aside.

I don't have ADHD but this is something I struggle with/keep at the back of my head constantly. It took me a very long time to accept that (to put it bluntly) it's almost impossible for me to force myself to work on something I find useless. I wrote about this here: https://sonnet.io/posts/hummingbirds/ and here: https://sonnet.io/posts/sit/

Do you have any resources on the subject you could recommend?

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#167

Post by krono »

scns wrote: post #153
krono wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. The symptoms of this disorder are caused by physical differences in the brain, right there in the prefrontal cortex where those responses to inputs are generated. It sometimes happens that I just physically can't bring myself to complete some simple but important chore. That's not because I'm mentally weak, but because my ADHD brain does not provide the right amount of dopamine…

> ADHD is a neurodevelopmental disorder. At first i wanted to disagree, then i realized why. Disorder means wrongly ordered or sickness. ADHD is classified as such, and if you want treatment, you need to get yourself diagnosed. I really dislike the pathologizing of every neurotype that deviates from the imaginary normal person. I'm pretty sure, if you look closely you'll find something "broken" in everybody. Other pe…

It is indeed a sad state of affairs and a continuously deteriorating one at that. Ironically unhelpful are all the extra hoops society makes us "neurodivergents" jump through again and again before they'll give us the the things we need that will let us become more like them.

With regards to the second half of your post: I understand how you meant for it to come across and that you posted it with the best of intentions, but it still hurts a little bit to read. To save you the sob story, let's just say it's a bit similar to telling paraplegic to be happy with his cool motorised wheelchair that he gets to ride around in all day, and that some of the greatest achievements in history were made by people who often sat in chairs also :)

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#168

Post by catsarebetter »

btilly wrote: post #13

I have moderately severe ADHD, and have good reasons to not use medication. My first response to this is that it solves problems that I don't have, and ignores the ones I do have. Organizing my day on paper is trivial. I'm also married to someone with a good partnership, and we offload different types of tasks to each other. She might enjoy having software assistants to be more productive, but I don't need that. I ha…

This is the first post I've read about ADHD that makes me think that there are multi-dimensional qualities and that the general public treats ADHD as a binary yes/no. Very interesting and great self-awareness too.

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#169

Post by Meculitio »

btilly wrote: post #13

I have moderately severe ADHD, and have good reasons to not use medication. My first response to this is that it solves problems that I don't have, and ignores the ones I do have. Organizing my day on paper is trivial. I'm also married to someone with a good partnership, and we offload different types of tasks to each other. She might enjoy having software assistants to be more productive, but I don't need that. I ha…

Doesn't work for me at all.

I have high motivation/curiosity and struggle hard to do things even if I know like and enjoy them.

Medication helps tremendously with this and I reduced it for a few years and still have behavior patterns I learned on medication

Re: Cognitive AI for ADHD

#170

Post by littlelady »

btilly wrote: post #142
Robotbeat wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific about what you do?

Not in a comment, sorry. I could write a book, and it would still feel vague. And what I do for myself, isn't going to work the same way for you. I will say that my path involved a lot of work on self-honesty. A lot of work on body awareness. (A lot of emotions show up in your body.) A lot of work on building empathy and gratitude. Meditation played more than a small role. All of that just to get to the point where I…

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this sounds a lot like dialectical behavioral therapy (DBT), which focuses a lot on mindfulness and emotional regulation to identify "triggers" for impulsive behavior.
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