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As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

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51–60 of 159 posts

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#51
post #3

Aside from Ocean Acidification, uncontrollable Algae Blooms, and Melting Sea Ice, we now have Ocean Deoxygenation on our plates. We also have unprecedented droughts on land as well. Humans really will be the next mass extinction event on this planet. So incredibly selfish.

I don't think there has ever been a time in all of human history with so many existential threats. Between catastrophic climate change and resource depletion, AI, the danger of nuclear war, COVID and other potential pandemics, economic insecurity for most of the population, and farmed irrational extremist political movements, we seem to have quite a lot to deal with. Might as well just have Carrington Event 2.0 and b…

COVID was never an existential threat. I'm not aware of any pandemic being that, even smallpox or the black death. Where existential means threatening the existence of the human species.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#52
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still few problems with this. - intensive fish farming can lead to environmental issues, such as water pollution from fish waste, excessive use of antibiotics and chemicals, and the depletion of wild fish stocks used for fish feed - some farmed fish species require a substantial amount of wild-caught fish to produce a relatively small amount of farmed fish - the conversion of natural habitats like mangroves and wetla…

> We have to switch to plant based diets. > It seems to me that nothing else will stop the environmental destruction, in this case overfishing, which alone threatens us with empty oceans in 2040's. There are two things I can say about this: 1) We won't (unless/until forced to). 2) There are other sources of destruction that will continue even if most people switched to a plant-based diet.

1. just remove the subsidies, the market will take care of the rest

2. what other industry is more destructive than animal ag?

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#53
post #8

Looks like we are the paper clip optimising narrow AI we’ve all been afraid of after all… We don’t make paper clips though, we’ve optimised to make money and turn everything into it. So ashamed to be part of of it,

I think we're a little better than that. No one actually wants a world where everything is turned into financial statements. The tragedy of the commons is a bug, whereas wholesale conversion to paper clips for Clippy is a feature.

So I think we are this, even if we don't want to be. We just don't have the (whatever it is) to not do it.

I think where we've made the mistake was deferring everything to technological solutions, which arguably created the problem in the first place.

This is not to say technology won't help, or even eventually solve it, but we should work harder on the people and governmental problems.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lab grown beef has sure had a major impact on clear-cut ranching

Yeah, it turns out, things never get cheaper or created in greater quantities over time. No history of that ever happening.

Sure ... but we still don't know how to grow that in big quantities. And scaling the production could take few decades.

Plants do we have now, and properly cooked they're delicious ;)

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#55
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're a little better than that. No one actually wants a world where everything is turned into financial statements. The tragedy of the commons is a bug, whereas wholesale conversion to paper clips for Clippy is a feature.

So I think we are this, even if we don't want to be. We just don't have the (whatever it is) to not do it. I think where we've made the mistake was deferring everything to technological solutions, which arguably created the problem in the first place. This is not to say technology won't help, or even eventually solve it, but we should work harder on the people and governmental problems.

[deleted]

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#56
post #42
post #35

My friends who are fishery people (biologists) are all pretty sure we've doomed commercial fisheries in the ocean. It's too late to recover and no one really wants to fix the issues. Enjoy your seafood while you can because they think they'll be gone before our generation dies out.

Perhaps your friends work in a region like the GOM where anoxic zones are a substantial and growing issue or regions where management remains poor so the sentiment would be accurate for their domain, but it isn't even close to holding true globally for all fish stocks, neither effects of low oxygen nor overharvesting etc. There were big improvements in stock assessment and fisheries management around 15-20 years ago…

While Ray Hilborn is one of the biggest (most publishing) voices in academic fisheries research, others absolutely hate him: Greenpeace calls him a 'overfishing denier' https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/research/overfishing-denier/

>As part of their investigation into our appeal, the journal also posted a correction noting that several authors of a paper defending the Marine Stewardship Council were actually employed by the MSC – and Ray Hilborn had received funding from certifiers employed by the MSC. Small victories, perhaps, but in an era where we need strong scientific advice more than ever, we cannot afford to have research clouded by undisclosed conflicts of interest.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there has ever been a time in all of human history with so many existential threats. Between catastrophic climate change and resource depletion, AI, the danger of nuclear war, COVID and other potential pandemics, economic insecurity for most of the population, and farmed irrational extremist political movements, we seem to have quite a lot to deal with. Might as well just have Carrington Event 2.0 and b…

Actually, the world has never had greater economic security than it does in 2023.

It's all a mirage

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have to switch to plant based diets. > It seems to me that nothing else will stop the environmental destruction, in this case overfishing, which alone threatens us with empty oceans in 2040's. There are two things I can say about this: 1) We won't (unless/until forced to). 2) There are other sources of destruction that will continue even if most people switched to a plant-based diet.

1. just remove the subsidies, the market will take care of the rest 2. what other industry is more destructive than animal ag?

how does shipping and air travel compare? I think they dwarf animal ag

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#59

How did fish manage during the climatic optimum [1] some 8500 to 5500 years ago when it was between 1.5°C and 4°C warmer than it is now, let alone during the previous interglacial periods [2] which were markedly warmer than the Holocene (i.e. the current interglacial period)? If there was a marked reduction in ocean life due to reduced oxygen levels that should be visible in fossil records. If there was no such reduc…

> How did fish manage during the climatic optimum [1] some 8500 to 5500 years ago when it was between 1.5°C and 4°C warmer than it is now

It was not 1.5—4 °C warmer. Mean air temperatures around the peak of the HCO were less than 1 °C elevated relative to preindustrial temperatures and were below last decade's mean air temperature. And those aren't ocean temperatures. Regionally, surface waters around the great barrier Reef was ~1 °C elevated relative to modern day.

Anyway, the answer to your question is the rate of change since was much slower than recent temperature /pH changes. Populations, even sessile ones like corals can more successfully redistribute and move toward the poles to find optimal thermal conditions with a slower rate of change. And we are also putting the ocean under a few other confounding stresses like overfishing, eutrophication, acidification, coastal development and habitat loss, etc, which is novel territory relative to previous climactic shifts.

Also I'll note what might be a blip in the geological record in terms of fossil richness could still have profound consequences for species on which we depend on for economic livelihood and food security, e.g. say you have a well managed fishery harvested at close to maximum sustainable yield. If conditions change such that the environment rapidly shifts to support only 80% of the original carrying capacity due to growing OMZs, the fishery now needs to be managed such that it will support a lot less jobs and produces less food (or, mgmt doesn't adapt and the stock gets severely overharvested, and then the job and production loss necessarily follow).

> I suspect this balance between higher atmospheric CO₂ which leads to an increase in vegetation which then leads to an increase in oxygen production is what kept ocean life from succumbing due to oxygen deprivation.

The article mentions why this suspicion is wrong. In fact, proliferation of the main oxygen producing taxa in the ocean is one of the primary mechanisms that exacerbates oxygen minimum zones. Phytoplankton blooms, then dies, sinks, and get eaten by microbes that consume oxygen.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#60
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acidification is the unavailability to carry hydrogen molecules. The primary hydrogen carrier in water is oxygen. Are deoxygenation & acidification different problem, or different slants on the same problem?

deoxygenation, and acidification are two different phenomenon, they may influence each other but are not obligated. im very much inclined to say these are not problems. these are symptoms of a larger scale problem, namely an atmosphere pushing thermal bounds beyond global buffering capacity, and CO2 accumulating beyond biospheric buffering ,and regulation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_overshoot
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