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Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

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Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#371

Post by meragrin_ »

thefurdrake wrote: post #351
meragrin_ wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would this block ad-blocking?

Websites could choose to deny access to clients that attest to having adblocking addons installed.

Point me to anything which would give websites access to that information via WEI. There is nothing. I have seen nothing except FUD. Aside from that, this only attests for the device. Ad-blockers can be external. This does nothing for external ad-blockers.

Explicit non-goals for WEI:

"Enforce or interfere with browser functionality, including plugins and extensions."

https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/...

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#372

Post by skilled »

flyinghamster wrote: post #293
skilled wrote: post #98

I find it staggering that so few media outlets have picked this story up. TechCrunch spends 80% of its time farming Elon Musk stories but won't lift a hand to promote a good fight. Are these news companies so entangled in the corporate world they can't risk taking a stand because it risks them losing access to real-time news? I don't really understand it so I am kind of guessing, but it is nonetheless strange.

> I find it staggering that so few media outlets have picked this story up. The media outlets are pushing for this. Hey, no more adblockers! I'm surprised they aren't running glowing testimonials of the new Google-overlord future.

Now that you put it that way, I guess it does make a lot of sense.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#373

Post by olyjohn »

dizhn wrote: post #127
bombolo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget maps, where they arbitrarily decide to show you a shop/hotel/restaurant 5km away when there is one 200m away.

I am kind of surprised none of the navigation apps divert your course slightly to pass in front of a large store or something yet. It could even announce the place. "On your right is such and such store where using the code Maps will give you a 10 percent discount."

Waze does this, or at least it did a few years ago when I used it. I remember being stopped at a light, and it told me there was a Taco Bell or Jack in the Box, or something within X feet, a coupon for some kind of discount if I go there, and a button to navigate me to it.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#374

Post by meragrin_ »

zb3 wrote: post #346
meragrin_ wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's not the user ("you") deciding which attesters to trust - it's website operators. You know what? They are already doing it. This just gives them another option. > And they will choose to trust only attesters that meaningfully (cryptographically) verify the user's client environment, including the secure boot chain, OS, and browser. Otherwise the attestation can be spoofed, in why case why would they bother…

Those methods didn't kill the open web because they could be bypassed, and that's precisely why WEI was proposed.

Really?? Mind telling me how to access Netflix, Disney+, or any other streaming service without authentication/authorization? I'll take the information on banks too.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#375

Post by khimaros »

worrycue wrote: post #134
tgv wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was clear when they started with Google docs that they were using their browser to get market domination. They offered a free product that people liked, but almost forced them to switch to Chrome. They got entire nations to switch their education tooling to chrome and google docs. Now they keep adding features that enable bad developers to create websites that don't work properly in Firefox and Safari. The…

Google’s web products have always worked with Firefox to my knowledge. Maybe they run a bit faster on Chrome but I don’t recall them ever being broken on Firefox. Perhaps I’m wrong. Can you cite incidents of Google’s stuff not working right on Firefox (or Safari even). Also which features enable developers to create sites that don’t work in Firefox and Safari? (I really don’t know. I’m not a web developer.)

cloud console is unusably slow in Firefox

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#376

Post by JohnFen »

c0l0 wrote: post #15

In 2012, I interviewed at Google Ireland for an SRE position. I ended up not taking the job due to family issues, but I somewhat regretted having missed the opportunity to tackle Google-sized problems and make FAANG-sized money for a few years after. This feeling has ceased entirely in the meantime, due to what Google has become, and how its understanding of its role in the world seems to have shifted. Or maybe its t…

I think Google did used to be a force for good. I even got happy when they bought the notorious DoubleClick, because I was confident that they would be able to change the scumbag online ad industry for the better.

That didn't happen, though. What happened instead is that Google became a scumbag online ad company.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#377

Post by thefurdrake »

meragrin_ wrote: post #371
thefurdrake wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Websites could choose to deny access to clients that attest to having adblocking addons installed.

Point me to anything which would give websites access to that information via WEI. There is nothing. I have seen nothing except FUD. Aside from that, this only attests for the device. Ad-blockers can be external. This does nothing for external ad-blockers. Explicit non-goals for WEI: "Enforce or interfere with browser functionality, including plugins and extensions." https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-…

Oh. Hmm.

That link needs to be passed around a little bit more. Whoops.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#378

Post by charcircuit »

zb3 wrote: post #344
charcircuit wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the idea that it's about allowing me to attest to the security of my device is not correct I was oversimplifying. A service doesn't have to trust every attestation and a service does not need to do anything with the attestation if it doesn't want to. >The issue is that making modifications to anything in the chain of trust requires approval from a trusted third party. That is by design because it means untrusted peo…

The problem is that the owner of the device is considered "untrusted" here. While that sometimes makes sense (for law enforcement purposes), using this for business purposes is anticompetitive. It shouldn't be possible for companies to do whatever they want.

>using this for business purposes is anticompetitive

Businesses not trusting every random person is not anticompetitive. Doing that is how businesses make bad deals, get hacked, or make bad decisions.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#379

Post by pino83 »

I would love to be wrong... But hey, you let Google happen so far, Chrome, YouTube, you let GMail happen, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, you let WhatsApp happen, you let Cloud happen, subscription models, Android, iPhones, EME, Discord, ..., ..., ...

And anybody here actually thinks that you will be strong enough to stop WEI?

One could just laugh, if it wouldn't be so sad....

You will - as always - stop nothing from happening, I guess. And you will again happily call it 'pragmatism' or say 'ohh, but I had to; they forced me'...

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#380

Post by gumby »

yencabulator wrote: post #366
gumby wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s using their de facto advertising monopoly to get into a new market (cloud hosting).

So, like Amazon used their de facto book sales monopoly to get into cloud hosting? How Microsoft used their huge desktop & office software market share to get into cloud hosting? How IBM used their huge typewriter market share to get into computers? It's normal for large companies to use their revenue to expand into new market segments.

Those are excellent examples! This kind of thing was prosecuted firmly until antitrust was “reformed” under Reagan (the law didn’t change but the FTC reinterpreted it, largely led by Bork), the new approach (consumer price doctrine) followed by every successive president until Biden. And those years of doctrine, and judges influenced by them have made it tough going. But I think the tide is slowly turning.

The consumer price doctrine (all that matters is what consumers pay, whether by a large monopolist or deep competition doesn’t matter; pick the best for each situation) is seductive: after all the whole point of government, at the end of the day, is what’s better for the people, right?

But lazy analysis meant just imagining the immediate price change for consumers; long term factors like supplier resilience, innovation, supply chain fragility et almare ignored. Also ignored is the reality from empirical data: permitting or even endorsing monopolies ends up with higher prices not lower.

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