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Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

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Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#131

Post by jbooth »

crusso wrote: post #127
jbooth wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not advocating for the proposal necessarily, but it's worth pointing out that a solution could be all kinds of bad yet still better than the mess we have today.

I don't agree with that. We could really screw up an industry that has been phenomenally successful at producing drugs that everyone agrees have provided incomparable and vital life-saving solutions. We should be extremely sober and careful about messing with it and mindful of our ability to destroy the benefits that we already get today. I've seen too many comments in this thread along the lines of "They make too mu…

How about, "they spend more money on ads and sending hot 23-yos to doctors' offices with free schwag than they'll ever spend on R&D".

Again, I'm inclined to agree with your criticism of that particular proposal. And I'll agree that there are things that are worse than the current state. But the current state is pretty bad, and imperfection is not a disqualifier for "better".

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#132

Post by todayiamme »

crusso wrote: post #122
Produce wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human lives are at stake, there's nothing more cut and dry than that. We need to stop trying to make our reality fit our models and start adapting our models to fit reality. This whole business is backwards.

Human lives are at stake if we screw up the drive to discover new drugs that will save future lives. Imagine if you had eliminated Bayer's incentive for even creating this cancer-saving drug in the first place. How many lives would you have ended prematurely? Imagine all the new drug research that depends upon Bayer's initial research that will save yet more lives. Like I said, it's not so cut and dry. The pharmaceut…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Salk

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#133

Post by JunkDNA »

Alex3917 wrote: post #108
JunkDNA wrote: post #36

I worked in the drug R&D business for over 8 years. I still follow the industry closely. Some things always get lost in these discussions. First, manufacturing an existing drug is absurdly cheap. Modern industrial chemistry ensures this for all small molecule drugs (note that this is not the same case for the "biologics" which are often fiendishly difficult to make). Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer…

> Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer recouping R&D costs. Actually that's not true. Big pharma spends twice as much on advertising as they do on R&D: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.ht... They also spend a significant amount of money on government fines due to corrupt practices (i.e. killing people). They are now the single most corrupt industry, paying significantly more fine…

If you took the time to look at the link I posted that talks about the Forbes piece, you'd see that they specifically excluded the cost of marketing from the analysis of how much it costs to put out a new drug. When companies do marketing, they expect it to more than pay for itself, clearly it is, or they wouldn't be spending so much on it. I know people don't like to hear it, but marketing products does lead to more sales.

Trust me, having worked in an R&D organization, there was no want for more funding. There was an incredible level of funding. If the problem in the drug industry is simply that not enough is being spent on R&D, that is easily correctable. Unfortunately for all of us, that's not the problem.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#134

Post by smalltalk »

vannevar wrote: post #106
JunkDNA wrote: post #36

I worked in the drug R&D business for over 8 years. I still follow the industry closely. Some things always get lost in these discussions. First, manufacturing an existing drug is absurdly cheap. Modern industrial chemistry ensures this for all small molecule drugs (note that this is not the same case for the "biologics" which are often fiendishly difficult to make). Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer…

Somewhere out there, a business model is waiting to be found. I hope so, because the current one isn't working for consumers. Even with the billions spent on R&D, it turns out that many of the drugs Big Pharma turns out are no better than placebos. It's not hard to see why: a big company spends X amount on each failure and needs a 10X hit to offset the costs. If one doesn't materialize, it's not hard to rig the stati…

Do you not believe these are actually problems for people?

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#135

Post by smalltalk »

Produce wrote: post #101
betterth wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of the money goes into Phase III clinical trials. Don't bash the FDA - they're the most evidence based, scientifically minded regulatory body in our government. Preclinical and Phase I - II trials aren't too expensive, in the order of millions of dollars. But also remember, for every ~10,000 candidates that enter preclinical trials, about 1-2 will actually pass FDA approval. The billion number isn't just…

>But the FDA is the most strict drug regulatory body in the world, and the amount of evidence for efficacy that they require from the industry is truly impressive and truly does warrant the billions price tag. Funny how there are so many SSRI's on the market. Funny how this model results in the conclusion that it's a good idea to give kids amphetamines when they are known neurotoxins. Funny how medical marijuana is t…

SSRIs don't help people?

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#136

Post by Alex3917 »

makmanalp wrote: post #128
Alex3917 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer recouping R&D costs. Actually that's not true. Big pharma spends twice as much on advertising as they do on R&D: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.ht... They also spend a significant amount of money on government fines due to corrupt practices (i.e. killing people). They are now the single most corrupt industry, paying significantly more fine…

I'll play devil's advocate: Marijuana users pay fines too, are they also corrupt and immoral? How about drivers who drive at 80km/h on a highway that is 95% 80km/h and 5% 50km/h which was obviously set up to trap people into paying fees? How do you know the fees that big pharma pays are not because of similar over-oppressive laws designed to make the government money? Edit: Well, I'm a moron for talking before readin…

"How do you know the fees that big pharma pays are not because of similar over-oppressive laws designed to make the government money?"

Because I read the study.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#137

Post by refurb »

This may end up hurting India not helping.

In order to get a drug approved in India, you need to run clinical trial on Indians. You also need to go to through the regulatory process, which isn't cheap.

If drug companies fear that the millions they spend on getting a drug approved in India won't be recouped because the gov't issues a compulsory license, then they simply won't do it.

I mean think about it... if introducing your product to a new market resulted in a net loss, would you do it?

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#138

Post by refurb »

Duff wrote: post #76
JunkDNA wrote: post #36

I worked in the drug R&D business for over 8 years. I still follow the industry closely. Some things always get lost in these discussions. First, manufacturing an existing drug is absurdly cheap. Modern industrial chemistry ensures this for all small molecule drugs (note that this is not the same case for the "biologics" which are often fiendishly difficult to make). Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer…

At this point, isn't the pharmaceutical industry playing games with supply by limiting the production of many medicines? Even a common OTC drug like guaifenesin that has been around since the 50's is difficult to find by itself, except in the newly patented time-release formulation (ie. Mucinex). (Although it is an ingredient in many cold medicines.)

The margins on generic drugs are razor thin. Most of the recent drug shortages are due to a lack of starting materials or manufacturing problems. Both of these can be traced back to the fact that there is very little money to be made in generic drugs. They are basically commodities.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#139

Post by Alex3917 »

JunkDNA wrote: post #133
Alex3917 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer recouping R&D costs. Actually that's not true. Big pharma spends twice as much on advertising as they do on R&D: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.ht... They also spend a significant amount of money on government fines due to corrupt practices (i.e. killing people). They are now the single most corrupt industry, paying significantly more fine…

If you took the time to look at the link I posted that talks about the Forbes piece, you'd see that they specifically excluded the cost of marketing from the analysis of how much it costs to put out a new drug. When companies do marketing, they expect it to more than pay for itself, clearly it is, or they wouldn't be spending so much on it. I know people don't like to hear it, but marketing products does lead to more…

"If the problem in the drug industry is simply that not enough is being spent on R&D, that is easily correctable. Unfortunately for all of us, that's not the problem."

The problem with the drug industry is basically that many of their most important epistemological assumptions are largely incorrect. The reason the entire industry is about to go under isn't because all the easy cures have been taken, it's because they started to buy into their own bullshit. Their astronomical R&D costs and terrible success rates are largely their own fault, so I don't really buy this high cost of R&D argument as a reason for not making the drugs more widely available. I won't bother rehashing all of the epistemological problems with allopathic medicine here, but I was link to this video which talks about why the ubiquitous mouse model is so problematic:

http://vimeo.com/33803995

Plus, many of the new drugs are just evergreens, so much of that 'R&D' is really just a clever way to screw the patients.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#140

Post by refurb »

lysol wrote: post #80
ekianjo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why the cost of R&D is inflating so much is due to relentless addition of new regulations, new requirements, new safety-related trials demanded by the authorities. Add to that that almost every other country has specific requirements that do not fit with what was developed and proven before, and that's just another 2-3 years clinical trial you need to put up with. This is really getting insane and there is…

Got any examples? The trial process for new medications isn't perfect, but without citing specific failures in the process it becomes to easy to discount the parts of the process that do work.

Weight loss drugs. Three new products were rejected by the FDA last year. Sure these drugs had risks, but what's the cost of obesity in terms of medical costs?

At this point in time the FDA has incredibly high standards of safety for weight loss drugs and not without reason. But what are the costs of the 40% of obese Americans who will get diabetes, cardiovascular disease, etc, etc?

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