Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine if — on top of that - we let the undeserving rich invest their wealth in things such as: - owning media - lobbying the government - owning the means of production It could take that dire situation and make it drastically worse. I mean, in theory.
> owning media Who should own media? Private people, or the state? > lobbying the government If lobbying the government is effective, it's either because the lobbying was correcting a wrong, or the government is allowing itself to be corrupted. > owning the means of production The "means of production" was barely relevant when Marx found out what a factory was from his factory-owning mate. A plumber owns "the means o…
The infamous coin toss
211–220 of 258 posts
Re: The infamous coin toss
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
> skews towards increasing wealth for winners at the expense of the rest of the population The usual response against that is: what is wrong with being a winner? I did something right, let me have my well-deserved money. The problem with someone getting well-deserved money is that the money starts working against everybody else, so essentially this money gives everybody else negative money.
Many times your money is not well deserved. Many times it’s due to luck, inheritance (see: luck), or dirty tactics. Regardless, the problem is very rarely that you “earned” money. Almost everyone is fine with you getting wages or perhaps entrepreneurial income. The problem is that wealth allows people to become more wealthy without really doing anything. Wealth compounds so that the rich get richer. And often the ris…
A) If your wealth is in cash in the bank, you are providing the bank with deposits. The bank can now make cheaper loans which helps others. But if these loans default, your bank fails and you get bailed-in. Assuming no government intervention comes to save you.
B) If your wealth is in stocks or corporate bonds, you're helping to finance companies that are making stuff / providing services that people might need. But markets can go down, companies fail, and as long as there's no bail-outs, you should be able to lose it all.
C) If your wealth is in government bonds, you're obviously financing the government. But if there's no buyer-of-last-resort (central bank) for your bonds, then one dodgy policy decision by the government, a large bout of deficit spending, or a failed bond auction will wreck the value of your bonds.
D) If your wealth is only in stuff, land etc. then your wealth shouldn't grow - in fact it should fall as these deteriorate in quality, and you're taking a big hit in the form of opportunity cost by not doing anything productive with the land/stuff. If you're having to maintain this 'stuff' then you're losing money, think cost of ownership, replacing capital etc.
E) If your wealth comes from rent, then you're taking a risk, and expect costly demands from tenants and to have to keep up with a competitive market. This I accept is something of a grey area because uncompetitive markets / monopolies can exist.
F) If you're wealth is in patents, copyrights fees, royalties etc... then there may be an argument here. This is up to the government to change, similar to E but without as much risk.
The trouble with the above A-E is the inherently inflationary system we have now where markets are never allowed to go down and deflation, bank failures, and default is prevented with stimulus. It props up stocks, bonds, means assets and stuff gets more expensive nominally without doing anything, it keeps banks afloat and means bail-ins of depositors are unlikely. Rich people who acquire assets are on to a guaranteed win like you say.
The solution is not to take away the incentive to produce more wealth by a punitive income tax, but to take away the asset inflation that makes asset holders rich by doing nothing, which also makes cash holders poorer and punished for being prudent with their meagre savings.
Re: The infamous coin toss
#213Huh. So I wrote the code, and ran the simulation. Now I get it. Investors: 100,000 Iterations: 100 Average worth after 100 iterations: $83.923 Average net worth increases. However the distribution of wealth is skewed dramatically. Winners: 13,704 (net worth of more than $1 at the end) Investors worth What That Guy was worth (the investor who made the most money): $1,171,830.00 He flipped 71 heads and 29 tails. Median…
In concrete terms I guess that means such things as re-distributive taxes ( either on death or through life ) - pooled pension funds, insurance, family and friends etc etc.
Re: The infamous coin toss
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Over time it does not. Yes, the article shows that almost certainly, any individual's wealth will approach 0 from repeatedly taking this gamble. However, the comments I replied to say: > But this is purely a result of the distribution of returns from a single toss. which I don't understand.
It will only approach zero because you lose more than you gain. If the loser got 0.6666c instead of 0.6c, and the winner got $1.50, then over time you'd break even, on average. And yet the expected return would apparently be 1.08333. If think the conclusion is that 'expected return' is a fallacy, you just can't add proabability-outcomes in this way to get an 'expected outcome'.
For what definition of "average"? Yes, the most likely outcome would be to break even. But if we mean "expected value" when we say average, then on average, that repeated wager would be massively profitable for us (in terms of wealth). Maybe a better way to view it is that it would be massively unprofitable for the casino offering it (this is more straightforward since the casino's outcomes are more ergodic than the individual's).
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Maybe a more clarifying discussion would be: what if you could accept these wagers (let's say 0.6x and 1.5x) if you can use a bet amount of your choice each time? That is, you don't have to wager your entire life savings, but you could choose to make the bet with $1, with the outcomes being $0.60 and $1.50.
Then, this wager is clearly a free money machine, right? We can come to the conclusion that it is a free money machine by looking at its expected value. That's why I disagree that "you lose more than you gain" and I disagree that "this is purely a result of the distribution of returns from a single toss".
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I guess I should concede that I agree with your reasoning, if we make the reasonable assumption that utility is the logarithm of wealth. In that case, I agree that I would be indifferent to taking a 0.666 and 1.5 bet for my entire networth, and that I would not take a 0.6 and 1.5 bet for my entire networth. However, I still contend that we can analyze the value of these wagers using expected value -- we simply look at the expected value of what we actually care about (utility), not wealth.
Re: The infamous coin toss
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
He may not be personally running a farm. But if much of his wealth is invested as is usually the case for the richest people (no way it's just sitting around as cash), then he's indirectly supporting many productive endeavors. Even if it was all just cash deposited in a bank, it's not doing nothing. Farmers and others need loans, banks need deposits (well ... before QE)
Almost all of his wealth is in stock. Start taking that and it becomes valueless, because things that are legal to steal at any moment are not worth buying.
Re: The infamous coin toss
#216Huh. So I wrote the code, and ran the simulation. Now I get it. Investors: 100,000 Iterations: 100 Average worth after 100 iterations: $83.923 Average net worth increases. However the distribution of wealth is skewed dramatically. Winners: 13,704 (net worth of more than $1 at the end) Investors worth What That Guy was worth (the investor who made the most money): $1,171,830.00 He flipped 71 heads and 29 tails. Median…
> Average wealth increases; but average log(wealth) decreases What’s the mathematical rationale (or intuition) for looking at the log values? I don’t quite understand what they represent.
The log change intuitively shows this.... log (0.5) = -0.3 & log (2) = 0.3
If you lose three quarters of your wealth, you have to quadruple your wealth to get back to where you where.
Again, log intuitively shows this.... log (0.25) = -0.6 & log (4) =0.6
Re: The infamous coin toss
#217Huh. So I wrote the code, and ran the simulation. Now I get it. Investors: 100,000 Iterations: 100 Average worth after 100 iterations: $83.923 Average net worth increases. However the distribution of wealth is skewed dramatically. Winners: 13,704 (net worth of more than $1 at the end) Investors worth What That Guy was worth (the investor who made the most money): $1,171,830.00 He flipped 71 heads and 29 tails. Median…
> Average wealth increases; but average log(wealth) decreases What’s the mathematical rationale (or intuition) for looking at the log values? I don’t quite understand what they represent.
An intuition is that log(wealth) represents utility. An intuition for why log(wealth) represents utility is that wealth has decreasing marginal returns. The logarithm is a function that fits this. If you play around with it a bit you might see that it conforms to your intuitions: increasing your net worth from $100k to $200k increases your utility significantly, maybe about as much as increasing your net worth from $1m to $2m, and much more than increasing your net worth from $1m to $1.1m.
Re: The infamous coin toss
#218if I go into the casino with 67 bucks and make 1,5 times what I have, I will own 100 bucks. If I go into the casino with 100 bucks and lose a third only (not 40%!) then I will own 67 bucks. Thus, +50% and -40% are not the right arithmetic pairs. It should've been +50% and -33%. It's even more intuitive to say 3/2 and 2/3. Waiting for a matician who can explain better, but this whole story is more of a parlor trick th…
> but this whole story is more of a parlor trick than anything else I don't think it is really. You're right in saying that 2/3 and 3/2 are the right numbers to ensure that the population wealth stays the same. But the point of the exercise is to show that the population wealth can increase while the wealth of almost any individual in the population decreases . This is the author's jumping-off point to argue that the…
Quick correction:
The article uses 0.6 and 1.5. In this setting, the population wealth increases and the wealth of almost any individual decreases.
In the comment you replied to, they propose 0.66 and 1.5. In this setting, the population wealth doesn't stay the same, it increases even more than before.
(In order for population wealth to stay the same, the payoffs should be 0.5 and 1.5)
Re: The infamous coin toss
#219The funny thing though is that despite the wheel being painted half green half orange, the actual odds are 75% green and 25% orange. But calculating how much of your money to bet at each iteration isn't super straightforward; in the end it turns out that to maximize your profit you should always bet exactly half of your money on green.
Re: The infamous coin toss
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
Media could be owned by the staff. That's what the Hell Gate website does. https://hellgatenyc.com/about-us We could also restrict ownership by audience size. So any one person or non-media organization cannot own or control multiple media organizations if their total audience size is above X people. Audience size would be prorated for partial ownership or control (i.e., owning 1% of a newspaper that serves 100K peop…
> Media could be owned by the staff Agree. That would be private people owning it, though.