Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#231

Post by amelius » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:03 PM UTC

rapnie wrote: post #60

We all let it come this far, because of how we treat the services Google provides: As nice free and helpful tools. Talking about "Chrome this and that" all the time we forget what that really means, namely: Using the strategic tools of the largest Advertising Agency in the world, that allows them to ever grow their dominance. Chrome, GMail and all that jazz all fit into a global-scale ad-tech framework to push shady…

> We all let it come this far, because of how we treat the services Google provides: As nice free and helpful tools.

This is exactly what we need to change. "Free" services are never really free. You pay for them in the end, anyway, and doubly so. First with your data, then with your money.

The free internet may be nice for some people, but we all pay the advertising tax in the products we buy. It would be much better if we banned this entire freemium pricing model and started paying for things like in the old days. It would solve a lot of problems.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#232

Post by atomicfiredoll » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:03 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

I worry the enshitification of a monopoly like Google, who now has it's hands deep in the workings of things like the web and email, means their supposed mission of "organizing the world's information" has devolved into "putting as many paid middlemen in front of the world's information as possible," or walling parts of that information off completely.

This goes without saying, but we shouldn't let one company be solely responsible for managing the "world's" information. "Organizing" sounds benign, but they've clearly extended past that.

I don't know that you're totally on point about how to break Alphabet up, but you're right that it should be. If information wants to be free, we should also re-examine how to ensure it stays that way in a world where Google isn't it's supposed shepherd.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#233

Post by ftaghn » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:04 PM UTC

zoom6628 wrote: post #9

I lived in china and put effort into de-googling my phone. Now I’m back in the open world and seems need do all over again. Must be a biz opp to run a proxy that strips everything google from pages and web communications. I would pay a few $/month to not be farmed without consent.

The problem with degoogling your phone in the west is that you may hit something that requires a non-rooted, pristine manufacturer provided rom to work.

In my case, my bank won't allow me to do online payments unless I validate the payments through a smartphone app as the 2fa. They do not do texting/sms based 2fa anymore.

The app will refuse to launch on a rooted phone or a custom rom. To me, this means a degoogled phone is absolutely unusable. I can't do without being able to use my credit card online.

This is in fact the sort of thing that will happen soon to the web if browser attestation becomes a thing. I can already see it coming, my bank rejecting logins from browsers that are not untempered, Google-provided.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#234

Post by dogleash » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

alberth wrote: post #215

Devils Advocate ... It's this about eliminating those annoying, and at times confusing, CAPTCHAs? 29% of all internet traffic is malicious bots [1]. Why is it a bad thing for browser makers to signal to websites that the party interacting with their website is a real human being or not? Why is there so much hate for what Google is doing with WEI, but I don't sense the same hate for Apple Private Access Tokens (PAT)?…

>Devils Advocate ...

"Devil's advocate" statements can be useful as a thought experiment in exploring a topic by generating something new that prompts others to make the counterargument explicit.

There's a lot of articles and comments here flying around in the last few days trying to reify google's idea and explore the boundaries of the implications.

When you raise one of the advertised positives, I don't feel like that's a novel point that prompts exploration of a new angle on the topic.

>Why is it a bad thing for [google's pitch]

/me gestures widely in the direction ongoing conversations and articles over the last few days

If you don't care about everything discussed, you can just say you don't care.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#235

Post by dcchambers » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

How exactly does taking one of the 3 major cloud providers and selling it to the largest of them help with monopoly/antitrust?

Besides IIRC Google cloud is actually profitable these days. No need to find a buyer.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#236

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

actuator wrote: post #230

Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

This is such a naive and for lack of a better word stupid take > YouTube - streaming content. Probably gets sold to Netflix or AT&T or Comcast. Make Netflix more powerful? In what world is that good for competition

>> YouTube - streaming content. Probably gets sold to Netflix or AT&T or Comcast.

>This is such a naive and for lack of a better word stupid take

What is the not naive, not stupid, clearly-more-beneficial-than-what-we-have action that should be taken with youtube?

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#237

Post by civilitty » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #212

civilitty wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send letters and call your Senators and House representatives. Donate to them the maximum you’re legally allowed to and when you get the staffer call asking for more money, give them an (respectful) earful. All it takes most of the time is a dozen people pushing the issue for a rep to make up their mind on a bill. On contentious issues, a few hundred persistent constituents will convince even Senators in large states…

So what kind of money are we talking about here? Order of magnitude?

$3,300 is the federal maximum per election per candidate but even a $1-2,000 donation will get a House rep’s attention (better donate the max for a senator though).

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#238

Post by ftaghn » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

renegat0x0 wrote: post #179

It reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine . They wanted to control your computer. Palladium, and other features also is about control. Remote attestation is about control. Embrace extend extinguish was about control and money. Since inception nobody said that IME was for the user. Nobody said that Palladium is for the user. Google arguments are all propaganda. Nicey nicey words for the pe…

>They wanted to control your computer. Palladium, and other features also is about control

That level of control was already achieved on mobile. Android is the wet dream that Microsoft had with palladium and failed to execute.

I can't use my banking app on a degoogled phone. It requires an untempered, manufacturer provided rom, and it will not run on a rooted phone either. The thing is, the banking app is not a side toy for me to just check up my accounts or do bank transfers instead of using the website, it's the only tool the bank provides to allow for online payment validation. You /need/ the app to make online payments with my bank. No app, no using your credit card online at all. Want the app, need to live under google (or iOS, which is even more closed and disgusting).

Palladium is real today.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#239

Post by polygamous_bat » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

rocho wrote: post #190

samwillis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may seem like a good idea but so much of Google's power comes from the Search + Search Ads monopoly. That is where they are anticompetitive to the max, that is where a change needs to happen. Splitting everything else off doesn't solve the core problem. Within Search + Search Ads you have a platform where Google are/have: - the sole vendor of a digital asset - ads - the sole marketplace for that asset - a closed…

Even if you split the search and ads divisions into two companies, what prevents them from entering into a partnership and keep doing whatever they do now?

Enshittifying search to serve ads' end goals/margins will go against the search company's shareholder interest, and they can be sued for that.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#240

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 03, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

alberth wrote: post #215

Devils Advocate ... It's this about eliminating those annoying, and at times confusing, CAPTCHAs? 29% of all internet traffic is malicious bots [1]. Why is it a bad thing for browser makers to signal to websites that the party interacting with their website is a real human being or not? Why is there so much hate for what Google is doing with WEI, but I don't sense the same hate for Apple Private Access Tokens (PAT)?…

[deleted]