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A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

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Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#141
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have all kinds of weird excuses for not using Firefox. Sometimes it feels like "Sure, Chrome sold my kids data to human traffickers. But I can't switch to Firefox because I really _need_ MIDI-2 over websocket support" Sure, FF is not perfect but a lot of issues is due to sites being optimised for webkit and that will not change as long as Chrome has 80% marketshare. You need to sacrifice a little for freedom.

Chrome is a lot more robust and secure against exploitation than Firefox is. This is a very unpopular fact, and every time I point it out the rabid Mozilla people get upset, despite it being the truth. I use Ungoogled Chromium.

Could you provide some sources for the true facts you're asserting?

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#142
What is the excuse of all people reading this thread in agreement and still using Chrome? As I mentioned elsewhere, this is preaching to the choir. A choir of Chrome users.

Google wouldn't be so dominant if tech people like us would stop making lazy excuses to continue its hegemony. In Dante's Divina Commedia, there is a circle of hell for those too lazy to take a stance [1]. If it were written today, it would include a lot of tech workers running Chrome with uBlock enabled.

It's 2023, Safari and Firefox have been very good for a while.

--

1: in fact, in the Divina Commedia the lazy ones that can't take a stance are kept just outside of Hell, as they are so detestable not even Satan itself would want them around.

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#143
post #34
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly Firefox is barely a hedge against Chrome. When it comes to things like JPEG-XL they are in lock step with Chrome. Safari ended up being JPEG-XL’s unlikely champion. I kind of wished Apple would release Safari for other platforms again.

HN is weirdly obsessed with jpeg-xl. The logic for removing it totally made sense.

There's nothing weird about the obsession. It's the most technically impresive format so far.

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#144
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been using Brave for about a year. Dont miss Firefox or Chrome.

Brave is just a privacy scam. And it's also Chromium based So you might as well be using Chrome.

Can you show some sources for how Brave is scamming people out of privacy (or whatever else "privacy scam" means)?

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#145
post #57

Remember the "Safari is the new IE" narrative? Just because Safari doesn't support some API doesn't make it IE, IE wasn't an inferior browser at the beginning either. What made IE the IE everyone hates was its departure from standards(?) and enforcing its own vision of the web thanks to its enormous market share. On IE's case, MS probably stagnated it to prevent competition against its desktop Apps business and on Go…

IE was absolutely hated for not evolving. I'm curious what "its own vision" was, other than "do as little as possible, while Mozilla and Opera keeps pushing forward." Now, this is from the perspective of the web developer. I don't think IE was ever hated the same way from the end-user perspective. Chrome is still innovating, but now end-users hate it, because it's trying to be too much. The "new IE" hat still belongs…

> I'm curious what "its own vision" was

Well, back in the late 90s it was all about ActiveX and integration with other Windows components and applications in order to shove all other browsers out of the marketplace, gain dominance over the web, and further bolster the Windows hegemony by doing so.

So, as one trivial example, you could export a Word document as a web page, open it up in IE and it would look great. But then you'd open it up in Netscape and you're left wondering "WTF?" because it looked terrible and the images were horribly degraded - intentionally degraded, as it turned out.

You'd open up the page source to figure out what was going on and you'd see a bunch of ActiveX crap for the images that would only work in IE. And, IIRC, the images themselves were BMPs, rather than JPEG or GIF (can't remember if PNG was supported at this point in any browser, but it certainly wasn't by IE or Office apps). So the images would look high quality in IE (and have massive file sizes, because BMP), whereas Netscape and other browsers didn't support ActiveX or BMP so they were just displayed as low-quality (IIRC) GIFs with extremely low colour depth. They could have displayed high quality images if they'd used a more suitable format, like JPEG, but they deliberately chose the most crappy image format, so that photos would look terrible in anything other than IE and people would think IE was a better browser as a result.

Once the EU's antitrust case against Microsoft gained pace, IE development really stalled, and that's when it stopped evolving. This was around the time of late IE4/early IE5 era. You'd be hard pressed to spot any substantive differences between IE5 (released in, what, 1999?) and IE6 (release, I think, in 2001). So then, fast forward to the 2010s and IE6 is still around all over the place: doesn't support PNG, doesn't support HTML5, doesn't support much of CSS, polyfills can only cover up so much, etc.

You had IE7, IE8, and IE9 as well, which were also dogshit (IE9 marginally less so), and didn't implement standards properly or had some MS-centric view of functionality implemented (old habits die hard, even though the battle was lost by that stage).

IE10 was starting to feel like Microsoft were taking web standards seriously, but still didn't support loads of recent APIs (Web Audio springs immediately to mind). Same with IE11: better but still too far off.

Edge was better again but caught in the middle: it still wasn't as good as Chrome and Firefox but now it had also removed all vestiges of IE support, for addins and suchlike, so it had alienated that crowd too.

And then Microsoft just sort of gave up: they moved Edge to Chromium which, at the time, I thought was a mistake and bad for the browser landscape and, no surprise, so it has turned out to be.

Now you have all the Chromium based browsers (including Brave), and Firefox (which is substantially funded via Google), and there aren't really any other mainstream capable browser engines out there. And, no surprise, Google are abusing their effective monopoly power because that's what effective monopolies always do.

Chrome actually is the new IE because with it Google are doing (much more successfully) what Microsoft tried to do with IE in the late 90s.

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#146
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you even aware that Brave uses Chromium basically? it uses Blink engine.

Near enough everyone here knows that. Are you even aware that Chromium is open source and Brendan Eich has said Brave won't be supporting WEI? https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1684561924191842304 Baby, bathwater, etc.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36983812

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#147
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firefox is unusable on Linux. Way too slow. That may be true for you, but not in general. Perhaps there's something about your system configuration that it doesn't handle well.

Believe me, I want to use Firefox, but I've tried it on multiple PCs and a dozen different distros, and it is always significantly slower than chrome. I actually benchmarked startup time and page load times a few weeks back and found it was 2-3x slower. Since then Brave has gotten even faster.

Slower on which websites?

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#148
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is brave shilled so much ? I don't think I recalled seeing as many ads from a browser other than brave. Using a browser that claims to be the new savior of the internet, "security and privacy focused", while being related to a crypto and heavily marketing their product... Meh.

It is my main browser in android. Never seen any add except some new stuff hard-coded. Yes there is something about crypto but I never used it. I am a pretty happy user. I don't understand why they market their product, I don't know any other alternative that blocks adds and is that fast on android. Users concerned about security and privacy should use TOR. It is very useful to browse websites blocked in my country.

"there is crypto but I don't use it"

Fair enough, but some of us consider the mere presence of crypto features to be a problem. It entirely erodes my trust in the teams judgment and if Firefox ever added something like that would have to switch away as well.

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I see what you mean. I'm personally not against this at all, since the Firefox devs need feedback on what's working and what isn't. But I completely understand that some people won't accept this. Only thing I can't figure out is if this is opt-out or opt-in, because I might have mindlessly clicked yes on opting in during installation.

What you mean is telemetry, that is something seperately. And it is also enabled by default( and also annoys me, but less so). But firefox studies means, (or can mean), that firefox will track you and sell that data to ad companies, if you "allow" it. Which everyone does, by default. This behavior from a "privacy orientated" company is close to a scam by me. Because a normal user who believes the privacy promise, won…

Selling data would be a bad move for sure. I can't seem to find anything when I search for it, do you maybe have a source I could take a look at?

Re: A list of recent hostile moves by Google's Chrome team

#150
post #108
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OS complexity isn't much of a moat, linux works fine. I said browser complexity, not OS complexity.

What difference do you see between a browser and an OS? A browser is an OS. They perform the same role. A context to run whatever 3rd party software. If a project is too complex for a single organisation, then break it up into 2-3 projects. That is how OSS software handles complex tasks. Someone could do a real LLVM-style browser project then we don't have to use javascript which'd catapult us all into the 21st centu…

> What difference do you see between a browser and an OS? A browser is an OS. They perform the same role. A context to run whatever 3rd party software.

This is where everything has gone screwy. A browser should only be rendering and displaying html files. Browsers should be minuscule in size, and /definitely/ not run any 3rd party software.

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