Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

techdirt.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 427 posts

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#111

Post by JumpCrisscross »

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #96
samwillis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may seem like a good idea but so much of Google's power comes from the Search + Search Ads monopoly. That is where they are anticompetitive to the max, that is where a change needs to happen. Splitting everything else off doesn't solve the core problem. Within Search + Search Ads you have a platform where Google are/have: - the sole vendor of a digital asset - ads - the sole marketplace for that asset - a closed…

> The most important "breakup" needs to be the ads business from everything else, including search. That's going to hurt, and I don't have the answers to how to make it work, but changes are needed. You can be happy then. https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-googl... The press release doesn't mention it, but the actual court document asks the court to: "Order the divestiture of, at minimum, the Goog…

Note, too, that this is the DoJ. They, unlike the FTC, actually know what they are doing.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#112

Post by matheusmoreira »

skybrian wrote: post #22

This is attributing intentions to Google when it's unclear what they're going to do. Probably even unclear to them. Not all anti-fraud measures are DRM. If "holdout sets" get implemented then it can't be used as DRM, because it will randomly fail. What we know now is that they wanted to run an experiment to gather some data. Since it's in Chromium, they needed to explain it, and they explained it poorly.

Bullshit. Stop assuming the trillion dollar corporation is incompetent and blameless. They know exactly what they are doing. Remote attestation allows them to determine that a web page has been "tampered with". Tampering includes deleting ads and corporate spyware as well as user scripts, extensions and automation. It is obvious how Google and all other corporations stand to gain from such technology.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#113

Post by antupis »

KnobbleMcKnees wrote: post #56
bushbaba wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud would be a huge profit maker as YouTube, search, ads would all then pay cloud for hosting. And they’d have no where else to go.

Further, selling GCP to AWS is not how we "break down monopolies".

as long you can rent rack full of servers and use it easily there is not that kind monopoly.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#114

Post by tremon »

komali2 wrote: post #20
dotancohen wrote: post #6

The article applies this terrific Doctrow quote about Secure Computing to WEI: > Should your computer be able to be compelled to tell the truth, even when you would prefer that it lie on your behalf? Should there be a facility in your computer that you can’t control that other people can remotely trigger? It is an apt application of the quote, and a fundamental question that is likely based on culture and each person…

Doctorow demonstrably knows more about this, and has thought about this, than me, but to me the answer seems somewhat straightforward: > Should your computer be able to be compelled to tell the truth In the context of the soldered chip that "can't be removed" that can report the "truth" of the kernel etc, the answer to me is a simple, "it's impossible to know if the computer is telling the truth or not." Go to defcon…

I think the importance of the quote is not in the answer, it's about how to frame the problem.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#115

Post by cowl »

choeger wrote: post #101
cowl wrote: post #92

It seems Everyone is taking for granted the claim that this is about DRM. The claim is that websites (not Google) will use this signal to allow or deny access but this is already possible with various means. Google or any other Browser vendor do not have a say on how websites use or misuse features. > There is a tension between utility for anti-fraud use cases requiring deterministic verdicts and high coverage, and t…

> what does Google have to do with how websites choose to treat their users or what solution they would propose Google owns YouTube. Is it so hard to imagine that some product manager at YouTube counted the losses due to adblockers and asked a team in Chrome to prevent them?

Youtube can and in some measure is already doing it without this new API. If google wanted to be sneaky they can provide whatever data they want to Youtube alone without making it a public standard. you see how all of these fears are contorted reasoning because you want to try to find something wrong with the proposal because all fo your fears do not require this proposals and would be easier and with much less backlash without a public standard API.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#116

Post by pyrale »

kortilla wrote: post #67
pyrale wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> none of the others are solvent without ad money. This is a consequence of Google's structuring. If the pricing is unrealistic after a split, it's also currently an example of price dumping preventing competitors from emerging.

That’s not “price dumping”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy) If you don’t charge a normal price for something anywhere, then it’s just a loss leader (costco hot dogs).

Just because the marketing dept calls it a "loss leader" doesn't mean it's not predatory pricing.

Whether a company crosses the line is defined by the impact it has on the market: if a company with enough market power uses that power to damage competitors, then this is deemed predatory. And, when it comes to Google, their history of leveraging their dominant lines of business to force an advantage in new markets, including via pricing, makes a good case for this.

If some spin-offs of a Google antitrust can't swim, let them drown.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#117

Post by rejectfinite »

robin_reala wrote: post #77
Timwi wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know much about how Brave is made, but you make it sound like they're using proprietary Google libraries, whereas I was under the impression that it was built from open-source software. If I'm right, the fact that this software originally came from Google is immaterial. If it's open source, Brave have full control over what it does and Google has zero.

Brave uses Chromium: an open source project controlled by Google. They can submit patches back to Google, but if Google don’t want to take them they don’t have to integrate them. So that leaves Brave with three options: they can take Google’s Chromium as is and focus on the browser interface potentially flipping a few config switches, they can maintain their own set of patches and update over time, or they can fork a…

Still better then running straight Google Chrome.

Yes there is Firefox

But Brave still faster + own search engine

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#119

Post by midoridensha »

hutzlibu wrote: post #65
Joeri wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money for developing chrome is not an issue. Google search could pay chrome to be the primary search engine just like they pay mozilla. Microsoft could fund chromium based on their use in Edge. Etc…

"Microsoft could fund chromium based on their use in Edge. Etc…" Microsoft surely will continue to develope edge. That is my main issue with this thing, because they surely would like to be the one with the dominating browser again and if google has to drop chromium, Microsoft will just overtake it. Antitrust and breakup is not a simple thing to do right.

The problem I see with this idea is that MS doesn't really have much leverage to push Edge on people any more. People aren't just using Windows PCs for their web browsing these days; lots of people are using mobile devices, and many don't even have PCs any more. Google and Apple control the mobile device market (roughly half and half, though it depends on which country you're in too).

If a bunch of websites suddenly required Edge on Windows to view, they'd lose a majority of their visitors.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#120

Post by barrotes »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #24
zoom6628 wrote: post #9

I lived in china and put effort into de-googling my phone. Now I’m back in the open world and seems need do all over again. Must be a biz opp to run a proxy that strips everything google from pages and web communications. I would pay a few $/month to not be farmed without consent.

Options are Linux, and half broken "phone" or Apple, the hardware is their profit center, as well as getting you to buy their software product, but your info isn't sold to 3rd parties (yet?) or Google (circumvent some of it with firefox+adblock origin) or just don't participate at all and get a flip burner.

Why 'half broken "phone"'? I used GrapheneOS for a while now, it works pretty well imho, the only problem I encountered till now is with maps. Finding a good and no-play-services maps app is a major issue. I use OsmAnd and it's quite mediocre compared to Play Services based options. With that (important) exception, I love the de-googled experience. The funny part is that to be de-googled the best choice is buying... a Google Pixel phone.
Post reply on HN