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Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

ft.com

81–90 of 187 posts

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#81

Hard to 'believe' in ESG/DEI when the rich continue to fly private jets and a black scientist has never won a nobel prize.

> a black scientist has never won a nobel prize.

This is the entire point of DEI. As Kendi says, the only way to undo past racism and become an equal society is a period of short term discrimination against the privileged. Not saying I agree, but a Nobel is basically a career achievement and dei has been around for what, a decade? Would be surprising if it already lead to a Nobel.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#82
post #59
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I first read about it I thought someone was playing an elaborate joke. It makes no sense why such ephemeral concepts should somehow lead to better investments. If anything, the entire ESG score thing seems like a scam to get people to make bad investments and to then bet against those investments.

> It makes no sense why such ephemeral concepts should somehow lead to better investments. Each component alone makes sense, if interpreted in a way that is consistent with shareholder capitalism. 1. Environmental. Interpreted in terms of shareholder capitalism, Environmental might mean something like "how well does this company work as a hedge against increasingly likely tail risks, and how resilient will it be to p…

Yeah, ESG data is kinda crap at the moment.

At least in the US, there isn't enough regulation to force companies to provide the data needed for an accurate ESG score. The scoring agencies are essentially just guesstimating based on what the companies are willing to expose. So, they're easily manipulated.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#83
post #23

When they say pollute in the headline, they mean only C02, which makes the headline misleading clickbait even for people who don't understand what the S and G in ESG stand for. > It can very well be that a high-emitting firm is very good at governance or employee satisfaction. There is no strong relationship between employee satisfaction or any of these things and carbon intensity,” Goltz argued. > “Even the environm…

I hate hate hate how pollution has been reduced to co2 and nothing else. Don't have to worry about global warming if contaminated water and soil kill us all first.

It's more that the other kinds of pollution are local and most of the world will be quick to fine you or throw you in jail if you start to pollute too much of them.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#84
post #79

Often companies with good ESG scores optimize for having good scores. Its like studying to the test and they may have particularly poor results outside of the test that they have studied for. Also, ESG is political and like all things that involve politics, many things that may be good for the score may be bad for the environment. Easiest example to see is in energy with things like nuclear power, and 'biomass' and c…

A good description would be “over-fitting”.

I'm not sure that fits, since it might imply it's not intentional.

I think these companies are simply, explicitly, optimizing directly for ESG, for maximum gain, without regards to the "spirit" of ESG. They're rational actors. Why wouldn't they? Just like with taxes, it would be silly to not use the loopholes.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#85

ESG is tricky to talk about thanks to the politization of it. I work on some projects that involve ESG data and I have some thoughts. First there's LOTS of factors. If you bunch them all up into one number, it becomes meaningless as the article describes. I would think wiser minds would use this data to make investment decisions based on some specific risk, like hedging against some environmental disaster which may a…

Goodhart's Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure"

Any ESG system that uses a calculated number composed of many areas will quickly fall prey to Goodhart's Law. With an E, an S and a G to work on, the areas for change are numerous enough that Goodhart's Law holds even in a non-cynical world.

When an edict that "We need to increase our X score this quarter" is handed down, the real, living people who have to improve the ESG rating are likely limited in what they can do. A combination of pre-existing contracts and commitments, difficulty in changing large systems and problems with multi-department co-ordination means that most changes will be small and isolated, i.e. things where one department or small team can implement the entire change.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#87
post #3

A component of ESG scores is how much you discriminate against white people. So of course you can have a good ESG score yet be a polluter.

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing the site guidelines and taking their intended spirit more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#88
The whole ESG discussion is fraught with misinformation.

Different ESG scores mean different things depending on what scoring you’re looking at. So, for example, an environmentally focused organization may rate a company high in ESG because they have low emissions and/or push for green legislation.

However, the more well known ESG scores that we see in the news are often from the financial press and are intended for investors, and often reflect the ESG risk exposure for the companies in question.

This tends to have the ironic effect of making environmentally friendly companies have low ESG scores, and less environmentally friendly companies high scores.

So, for example, Elon Musk complained about getting a low ESG risk score from S&P, but that made complete sense because Tesla was heavily exposed to governmental green policies. Remove CA’s CARB credits, or various green credits and tax benefits, etc and Tesla’s business would suffer.

Exxon, OTOH, was unlikely to see any such impact leading to a lower ESG risk score.

The key thing to understand is that there is no single ESG score. Every company creates different scores based on different factors and intended for different purposes, and their customers decide which ones are effective for their intended purposes and those scores tend to last and do well.

The political backlash against ESG scores is so misplaced.

It’s the equivalent of a personal wealth guru who believes that credit cards are not good for most poor people because they perpetuate their poverty deciding that therefore credit ratings for companies are bad, because both have something to do with the borrowing and lending of money.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#89
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ll hate cats then https://www.statista.com/chart/15195/wind-turbines-are-not-k...

You'll hate statistics even more: https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we...

That's not statistics, though? That's "we think there are fewer ownerless cats in the world than the authors do".

> We don't quarrel with the conclusion that the impact is big, but the numbers are informed guesswork.

Meanwhile the author outright says they're writing this opinion piece because they don't want to see cats banned as pets or people going out and killing a bunch of cats.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partially the politicization of it, but also because it is lumping together three issues that the society cannot even broadly agree one of the issues within 'ESG'. I don't think it is difficult to see why "ESG" is political by its nature.

Thanks this is a nice way of saying what the other poster said :) I agree, ESG is just a bunch of numbers but if we can't agree on what the right output is then it's political in nature. I wonder if society has a bigger issue with disagreements about the E and S rather than the G, maybe not?

I think there is a strong case for that, companies concern themselves with governance constantly and I would agree that there is less to be concerned about there. It seems like governance problems have been pretty well worked out over time and there is a good process for that even before the focus on ESG.

E and S are where many draw their political divides so I would tend to agree that is where many of the problems lie within ESG.

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