If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity • Hacker News Board

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#641

Post by wizofaus » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 8:59 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #513

sershe wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mountaineer too, it's just a chore to walk with groceries, esp. if the weather is bad and you have to do it every 3 days given how little one can carry. I think I mentioned the drinking aspect in the original comment. I could do all of these things by car, probably faster too... except drinking. So I guess it depends on how often one drinks :)

The paper bags they give you are terrible, they're barely fit to walk to the car with. They always fall apart on the walk home, and the ergonomics suck too. But with any reasonable bag I find it's not a big deal.

Are paper bags for groceries a thing in any country other than the US?

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#642

Post by wizofaus » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:01 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #597

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not gonna lie, having a 10 minute walk ruined by carrying a bag home sounds like you maybe need to deadlift less and cardio more or something. Or maybe get better bags? Walking to stores is an advantage because it allows for a density of services unavailable if parking lots are a serious consideration for businesses. I can go to my local convenience store, and my barber, and a no-waste shop, and my local bar, all in…

>Walking to stores is an advantage because it allows for a density of services unavailable if parking lots are a serious consideration for businesses. in my case it doesn't matter because the nearest store is a mile and a half uphill. Nothing can fix that. It's also a desert so there's plenty of space. Suburbs are simply incompatible with these ideas.

> Suburbs are simply incompatible with these ideas

Indeed. But you seem convinced it's the idea of walking to fulfill basic daily needs that's the problem...

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#643

Post by wizofaus » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:06 PM UTC

sershe wrote: post #627

spixy wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then go there with some backpack. I have a store in same building than my flat (but other side), and it is the best. Dont need to have car, dont need to worry about DUI... 100F (38C) is here twice maybe per year? Cannot you survive 38C for a few minutes? If it is 32F (0C). I just put warm clothes on? 32F is not very cold temperature anyway. Raining = umbrella (but I go without it, 2 minutes of rain wont kill me). How…

Or I could just drive. How is walking with all these inconveniences "objectively better"? :)

If all the externalities involved in having everyone use cars for every trip where they don't feel like walking are managed (including health impacts from pollution, sedentary lifestyles etc., time wasted sitting in rush hour traffic, dominance of cityscape by infrastructure dedicated to automobile traffic etc. etc.) then sure, driving is objectively better. I've yet to come across anywhere in the world that's true though.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#644

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:12 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #640

johnnyanmac wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This brush is just too darn broad.If you're gunnuh judge by flame wars, everyone is gunnuh come out smelling like poo. I did warn beforhand. I agree judging an entire political paradigm based on its worst actors is pretty much the worst way to approach said paradigms. But at the same time that is unfortunately becoming more and more commonplace. I'd need much more than 2 paragraphs if we want to fully dive into the…

> I did warn beforhand. I agree judging an entire political paradigm based on its worst actors is pretty much the worst way to approach said paradigms. Then don't do that. One person got frustrated and said something about slashing tires (and was immediately corrected by another urbanist). Don't turn that into a mountain.

With all due respect, I feel you started the molehill by replying to someone who was (also) frustrated by getting a reply about someone slashing their tires because of a small life choice (one that they DIDN'T do, in this instance. Just wished they could in the future).

I just wanted to touch into the why's and hows of the frustration. It feels like similar results, but had different causes. If you aren't interested, I apologize.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#645

Post by Karrot_Kream » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:15 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #617

aesclepius wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus it's objectively worse. NY/Chicago/London/Paris/Tokyo you can conceivably and easily nip out to a grocer's, bodega, cafe or pub within 10 minutes of where you are. LA? Outside of certain certain pockets like DTLA, KTown, WeHo or similar walking is tough and if your friend is across town you're SoL without a car.

> NY/Chicago/London/Paris/Tokyo you can conceivably and easily nip out to a grocer's, bodega, cafe or pub within 10 minutes of where you are. This keeps coming up on HN but it's not as absolutist as it's made to be. There are lots and lots of suburban places in the US where you can walk to things as you describe. NY/Chicago/London/Paris/Tokyo do not have a monopoly on walkability. I live in very suburban (approaching…

I think people are criticizing "American suburbia", not a a truly suburban form which is more urban than a rural form and less urban than an urban form. I live in what I call a "bike suburb". While the grocery and a couple other businesses are a 7-8 min walk away on a multi use path, the rest of the town opens up in a 5 min bike. Likewise I'm a 15-20 min drive away from tons of nature, and if we do need to drive around it's not as convenient as it is in suburbia but not too difficult either.

But a lot of suburbia is completely inaccessible or hostile by foot and unbikeable. Since you're in Silicon Valley, you can probably think of tons of places like that. Mixed use zoning and infill developmental priorities are what create this urban form. This is the important bit, not squabbling over which city is better than the other.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#646

Post by johnnyanmac » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

wizofaus wrote: post #642

johnnyanmac wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Walking to stores is an advantage because it allows for a density of services unavailable if parking lots are a serious consideration for businesses. in my case it doesn't matter because the nearest store is a mile and a half uphill. Nothing can fix that. It's also a desert so there's plenty of space. Suburbs are simply incompatible with these ideas.

> Suburbs are simply incompatible with these ideas Indeed. But you seem convinced it's the idea of walking to fulfill basic daily needs that's the problem...

Not particularly. I'd love to be able to walk a block down the street if all I need is a haircut and some milk. I just recognize that that isn't possible in my situation without spending a significant amount of time/energy (that I already lack) in doing so. I simply prefer that over the urban hellscape that is my local downtown (and well, the rural area where it's the worst of both worlds). It's also cheaper, so that helps.

There are other solutions to this if we don't only consider walking. e.g. public transportation. But my nearest bus stop is a quarter mile in the opposite direction. And only a quarter mile if you decide to hop the train tracks (which comes hourly, I am conveniently enough a mile from my local Amtrak); it's a half mile to do "safely".

I actually do agree that some of the tips here could improve even this short minor route I described to get to a bus, but suburbs don't exactly care much to begin with. When everything is far, everything is unwalkable, so why bother (in the minds of these small city planners).

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#647

Post by Karrot_Kream » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:22 PM UTC

sershe wrote: post #557

makeitdouble wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European and asian cities pretty much feel like a 10x - 20x bigger house for many. You walk down 2 blocks to get some milk and bread for the breakfast, post office is 3 blocks in the other direction, 1 block another way and you have fruits and vegetable. Basically you can treat the immediate surroundings as an extension of your house where you just "go" without a modal distinction of getting into a car, parking, back…

I dunno, I used to feel this friction (I didn't use to drive until I was ~30), how driving is a thing and not driving is frictionless, but I think it was just psychological. It feels reverse now - the only frictionless places for ~everyone are grocery stores and such, cause they are everywhere. And maybe things you consciously live next to, like if you decide to live next to an olympic pool facility or a nightclub. T…

This is why I personally prefer biking. I'm about to bike to the climbing gym. The one I like to go to is a 15 min bike ride away, so I'm already warmed up by the time I get to the gym. Likewise I can go whenever I want to avoid crowds.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#648

Post by maxbond » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #644

maxbond wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did warn beforhand. I agree judging an entire political paradigm based on its worst actors is pretty much the worst way to approach said paradigms. Then don't do that. One person got frustrated and said something about slashing tires (and was immediately corrected by another urbanist). Don't turn that into a mountain.

With all due respect, I feel you started the molehill by replying to someone who was (also) frustrated by getting a reply about someone slashing their tires because of a small life choice (one that they DIDN'T do, in this instance. Just wished they could in the future). I just wanted to touch into the why's and hows of the frustration. It feels like similar results, but had different causes. If you aren't interested,…

Well, from my perspective, I was trying to say it was a mole hill, and you were saying, from this angle it looks like a mountain.

I think maybe I didn't communicate tone well enough in my previous comment, I don't mean it to come off as berating you to stop or something. I was saying that, if you understand that painting with a broad brush doesn't work, I'm confused why I see a brush in your hand.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#649

Post by wizofaus » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #646

wizofaus wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suburbs are simply incompatible with these ideas Indeed. But you seem convinced it's the idea of walking to fulfill basic daily needs that's the problem...

Not particularly. I'd love to be able to walk a block down the street if all I need is a haircut and some milk. I just recognize that that isn't possible in my situation without spending a significant amount of time/energy (that I already lack) in doing so. I simply prefer that over the urban hellscape that is my local downtown (and well, the rural area where it's the worst of both worlds). It's also cheaper, so that…

> I just recognize that that isn't possible in my situation without spending a significant amount of time/energy

I'd argue the main reason it is isn't possible is because of poor town planning decisions made by governments over the last 50-60 years. It is still possible in many (most?) European town/cities, and is possible in the inner-city (but still pleasant and largely residential) suburb I live in, but I'd acknowledge there's far too few such suburbs in most Australian cities, and from what I've seen the US is similar.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#650

Post by 4iuvosvjf23 » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 10:08 PM UTC

mkaic wrote: post #488

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Short of tickets to Amsterdam for everyone, I don’t know how to fix it. I just got back to the US from Amsterdam. I'll never look at these awful streets the same again.

This was my experience as well. I went in fall of last year for four days to attend Blender (the 3D modeling software) Conference, and it was simply delightful. I walked to and from the conference center every day, took the metro a few times, got to ride the high-speed rail from the station that's literally integrated right into Schipol airport, and witnessed more bikers than I've ever seen in one place. All of this…

I'm seriously thinking about this as well because I look at my future in America and see very few options but car-dependent atomized misery and I'm terrified of it. I just can't go back to the crushing boredom that characterized my childhood. But I'm afraid to make a move because everything I see says tech salaries are a joke in Europe unless you make it to, like, Google in Switzerland or something.

The improvement to my mood of being somewhere nice, safe, and walkable is truly ridiculous. It feels like someone slipped some drugs into my coffee. How sad it is that we in America starve like this for a human way of life. Living here feels like a misery for money tradeoff and I don't know what to do.