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If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

streets.mn

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Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#611

Post by sgu999 »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #598
atchoo wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mountaineer, you no doubt have a wonderfully ergonomic high volume backpack that is great for a week of shopping. Two if your diet is basic meat and veg not processed food in lots of packaging. Same to the OP. You should own a decent feckin' shopping bag. It's basic adulting where I live. You have observed the problem yet not doing anything about which is just really weird.

>You have observed the problem yet not doing anything about which is just really weird. They observed the problem and simply have a different solution than you. I'm sure there's a number of other factors they didn't mention that make it preferable to simply use their perfectly working car.

> I'm sure there's a number of other factors they didn't mention that make it preferable to simply use their perfectly working car.

I'm sorry but when one is willing to put that much effort to try to justify using a car to avoid a 10 mn walk, that's only because one is way too lazy and privileged...

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#612

Post by tristor »

xtracto wrote: post #58
goda90 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have literally seen people scoff at biking or riding the bus as something for poor people. It is a common sentiment.

Anecdote time. Ten years ago I (Mexican, living in Mexico, a bit "white-er" than the average Mexican skin color) worked for a Silicon Valley startup with HQs in Mountain View. One time I was visiting said HQ, I met several people, I got to talk with one of them (Chinese/Asiatic looking woman) about how I was moving while I was there, and where was I staying (she didn't know where I was from). At some point I told her…

I spend more time in the Bay Area than I would like to. Despite everyone being outwardly extremely “progressive”, people in SFBA are generally extremely insular and bigoted. This expresses itself in many ways, including racism when the other person thinks you’re not the race they’re talking about (and it’s definitely not the exclusive provenance of whites).

My own recent anecdote: For context I’m white, but I speak Spanish, lived for a time in South America, and ended up marrying a US-born Mexicana. I wanted to get some legit Cali-Mex food while I was on a trip so got an Uber over to Mission and 24th which is a predominately Hispanic area. My Uber arrives and it’s a hippie-looking white woman in a Prius /covered/ in left-wing bumper stickers including one that said “Stop Racism” and a BLM sticker.

So we make small talk on the way, when we get to my destination and as I’m about to open the door to step out she says to me “be careful, this area isn’t so safe, there’s a lot of Mexicans.” I don’t know how to react exactly so I just leave. As I’m walking around looking at restaurants I realize nearly every street parked car is a relatively new import luxury vehicle. So it’s safe enough to street park your $100k car, but I need to watch out for those scary Mexicans.

As a white person I encounter this stuff a lot outside of work where people feel comfortable “confiding” their racism to me. For the record I gave her 1 star in Uber. The more left-leaning an area in the US, the more affluent and white it tends to be and the more likely I am to encounter casual racism.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#613

Post by chmod775 »

underdeserver wrote: post #605
axpy wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems pretty counter intuitive but this is often the other way around. The safest streets in Europe are where cars, bikes and pedestrian mix together. It force focus on the driving task instead of doing something else. If you are interested, Freakonomics have an episode: "Why the U.S. so good at killing pedestrian". It's an interesting discussion with no simple answer.

As an equal-parts driver, biker, e-scooter rider and pedestrian, this is horrible. Yes, you have to focus on the driving, or walking, or scooting, but you're in constant stress because you can accidentally hit someone coming from any direction. Or they can hit you. It's far better to have separate spaces, and cross only when you really have to.

Maybe you should be stressed? The point might be that environments where you're not stressed because they lull you into a false sense of security tend to kill more pedestrians.

You're moving tons of metal at high speeds. Don't get too comfortable doing that.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#614

Post by nradov »

whimsicalism wrote: post #151
closeparen wrote: post #3

This lens is underutilized in the discourse, but people feel it acutely. Even a lot of the anti-cycling stance comes down to, “What am I, poor?” When you are using transportation infrastructure that’s designed with contempt for you, you know, and you don’t want to be there. See also: rail slow zones, buses that shimmy and rattle violently on imperfect pavement, how Muni trains close their doors and pull one foot out…

> Even a lot of the anti-cycling stance comes down to, “What am I, poor?” When you are using transportation infrastructure that’s designed with contempt for you, you know, and you don’t want to be there. I grew up in close contact with a large urban poor population and I think the view of bikes was the exact opposite of this. Biking in the city is considered the purview of affluent white people

Walk behind restaurants in many US cities and you'll see the cheap mountain bikes that the lower-paid kitchen staff (mostly immigrants) rode to work. This is particularly common in the SF Bay Area.

(I am in favor of improving cycling infrastructure for everyone regardless of income level.)

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#615

Post by jjav »

tvaughan wrote: post #258
degrews wrote: post #106

I moved from Spain to the US, and I often find myself trying to explain to people back home just how miserable and even humiliating the pedestrian experience is here. Here are some other examples of things that I think contribute to the hostile walking experience in the US: * Cars parked in short driveways often extend all the way across the sidewalk. Even if you can easily step off onto the road to walk around them…

> I often find myself trying to explain to people back home just how miserable and even humiliating the pedestrian experience is here. Same. I’ve lived in Los Ángeles and Amsterdam, and it is impossible to explain to my friends and family just how awful the quality of life is in LA precisely because of the difference in attitudes and priorities over cars. Perhaps some have “nicer” (aka bigger) houses in LA than they…

> Perhaps some have “nicer” (aka bigger) houses in LA than they would have in Ámsterdam

The (insane) cost of housing in LA doesn't exactly lead to people having bigger houses (or often affording any house).

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#616

Post by [deleted] »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #591
esoterica wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC averages less than 1 pedestrian killed by bikes every year. https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nycdot-pedestrian... There are ~300 pedestrian injuries caused by bikes every year vs 10,000 caused by cars. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/nyregion/elderly-pedestri... Your feelings about bikes are in direct contradiction with the data.

One more time: The number of people killed by each does not matter to me. What matters is the chance of getting hit at all. I still have not seen a credible study about causes of accidents involving an injured pedestrian.

[deleted]

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#617

Post by jjav »

aesclepius wrote: post #463
sershe wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subjectively worse, not objectively worse. I think driving is much more convenient and nice for most things I like to do. The only exceptions I can think of are if I were a kid in a car-centric area (strangely, the thinking in the US is usually reversed, kids supposedly need to be in the burbs), or if I was drunk. I don't often get drunk, so I'd prefer to drive for everything from minor groceries to outdoor activitie…

Jesus it's objectively worse. NY/Chicago/London/Paris/Tokyo you can conceivably and easily nip out to a grocer's, bodega, cafe or pub within 10 minutes of where you are. LA? Outside of certain certain pockets like DTLA, KTown, WeHo or similar walking is tough and if your friend is across town you're SoL without a car.

> NY/Chicago/London/Paris/Tokyo you can conceivably and easily nip out to a grocer's, bodega, cafe or pub within 10 minutes of where you are.

This keeps coming up on HN but it's not as absolutist as it's made to be.

There are lots and lots of suburban places in the US where you can walk to things as you describe. NY/Chicago/London/Paris/Tokyo do not have a monopoly on walkability.

I live in very suburban (approaching on rural, but still suburban) area in the outskirts of silicon valley. Within 10 minutes I can walk to two supermarkets, several cafes and two pubs. Also to movie theaters, library, two drug stores, many restaurants, child care, a department store and many other businesses.

But unlike Manhattan, within 10 minutes (ok maybe 12) I can also walk to an open space forest where I can hike, mountain bike and go camping. Unlike in Manhattan, I can road bike many tens of miles of rural low-to-no-traffic roads out of my front door. We have many open soccer fields within easy walk (kid loves soccer so this is great).

Suburbs can be very walkable and have more variety of amenities within easy reach than a dense city.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#618

Post by esoterica »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #591
esoterica wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC averages less than 1 pedestrian killed by bikes every year. https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nycdot-pedestrian... There are ~300 pedestrian injuries caused by bikes every year vs 10,000 caused by cars. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/nyregion/elderly-pedestri... Your feelings about bikes are in direct contradiction with the data.

One more time: The number of people killed by each does not matter to me. What matters is the chance of getting hit at all. I still have not seen a credible study about causes of accidents involving an injured pedestrian.

Did you read the comment you replied to? I will say it again: there were 300 pedestrian injuries caused by bikes and 10,000 caused by cars in NYC in 2017. Click on the link.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#619

Post by jjav »

closeparen wrote: post #3

This lens is underutilized in the discourse, but people feel it acutely. Even a lot of the anti-cycling stance comes down to, “What am I, poor?” When you are using transportation infrastructure that’s designed with contempt for you, you know, and you don’t want to be there. See also: rail slow zones, buses that shimmy and rattle violently on imperfect pavement, how Muni trains close their doors and pull one foot out…

> Even a lot of the anti-cycling stance comes down to, “What am I, poor?”

Maybe this will change now that bikes cost more than most used cars. Spending 15K on a bike is a thing now.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#620

Post by mxkopy »

DANmode wrote: post #478
mxkopy wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends; biking because you need to and biking for fun look very different. IME of Phoenix you could have the cyclist doing training routes in their kit and the crackhead strapped with bags of their stuff pass by on the same street.

It can look very different. Burdens can be nonobvious.

I don’t think anyone with financial burdens is spending $500 on a bike and $150 on a kit. And if they are that’s more of a mental issue than a financial one
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