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The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

mstdn.ca

391–400 of 511 posts

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you consider a fair pay for junior engineers in order for them to contribute at the capacity they're expected to? Our fresh college grads are paid a total compensation higher than $200K. Is that not enough to expect working, at minimum , 8 hours a day?

Software engineering isn’t like manual labor. Only results should be measured. A programmer in a flow state who is completely focused will get more accomplished in 2 hours than they would in 8 if they were feeling uninspired and disengaged. Our job is foremost to think and solve problems. She might very well be thinking about solutions to her coding issues while walking the dog. You are not a very deep thinker if you…

I wonder why those managers who think butts in seats == productivity aren't fired first. They literally don't understand the business of managing Software.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone isn’t successful in making money on that work, though, it means it isn’t very good. I know it’s not a 1:1 result, but in reality, if you put in the hours and you make things people want, you will be successful. The problem is everyone who works on something they’re passionate about (even if they suck at it) thinks they ought to be compensated, even if their contributions amount to exactly Jack shit. Meanwh…

You can be a baker and make the best cakes in the world, but if your shop is located in the wrong place (like a dark alley with no foot traffic) where no one knows it exists, your business can fail if you don't also learn marketing, and possibly move to a better positioned (but more expensive of course) spot. A better spot, and marketing lessons though, are hinged on having the money to make that happen... Many peopl…

> You can be a baker and make the best cakes in the world, but if your shop is located in the wrong place (like a dark alley with no foot traffic) where no one knows it exists, your business can fail

Who's responsible for deciding where it's located? Maybe that person didn't work hard enough at thinking through the ramifications of their location. You can come up with a 1000 excuses but I guarantee the person more likely to succeed has answers for every one of them.

Not to say that luck doesn't come into play, but it's not the dominant factor and in a lot of cases can be worked around with hard work or extreme talent.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself, I know many people who derive a lot of joy from their work and find it energizing, myself included.

I think those people are typically called the "clueless": https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

No, those are the losers. The clueless are clueless that the pychopaths are using them as a shield against the losers.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time will tell whether the individual solution works better. I suspect 401k saving will not provide many people a stable retirement.

Why not? At 35 i’ve already got ~500K in my 401K. I guess it won’t work for people not saving enough into it and not actively managing their fund allocations over the years.

> Why not?

You are relatively well paid. Most people in the US received total less than $500k cumulative post-tax income by 35. Median incomes don't reach that level. Here are median personal income figures over the last 17 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...

Those are aggregated across age, and younger people tend to earn less, so the median total income working 18 to 35 will be lower than if you add up the age-independent figures. But even if that weren't true, and if people could miraculously save 100% of everything for 17 years, live on nothing but air and get totally free housing, most people still wouldn't have seen 500k by 35.

As well, necessary expenses (housing, food, transport etc) take up a higher proportion of their income than yours, because of lower income while necessary expenses don't decrease proportionately. So the proportion they can realistically save is lower than yours. For many it's a struggle to save anything, but even for those who can and are willing to sacrifice a lot, $500k by 35 is dream money.

Active fund management are not enough to make up the difference. Most people if they want $500k in a 401k by 35, have to earn significantly more than they actually do. Of course if everyone did that, prices would rise to compensate and $500k in the 401k wouldn't be worth as much.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#395
post #149
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard the argument that a negative effect of the post WW2 "feminist" movement (by that I mean women in the work force) has had the long term effect of causing prices to simply adjust to the dual income household, to the point that now it is a necessity. It is a privileged family today that can afford to live comfortably on only one salary.

I think piketty would disagree. Productivity per worker has gone up but the share of profits going to workers has gone down. This is not some kind of inflation driven by scarcity.

Of course not, it's driven by ability to pay.

And while I'm not a professional economist it does seem that you are correct in that demand-pull based inflation (cost of goods) tends to only happen in periods of economic expansion, while cost-push inflation (size of money supply) tends to be the driver in slower times.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? At 35 i’ve already got ~500K in my 401K. I guess it won’t work for people not saving enough into it and not actively managing their fund allocations over the years.

> Why not? You are relatively well paid. Most people in the US received total less than $500k cumulative post-tax income by 35. Median incomes don't reach that level. Here are median personal income figures over the last 17 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... Those are aggregated across age, and younger people tend to earn less, so the median total income working 18 to 35 will be lo…

I'm not sure I am necessarily paid all that well honestly.

I started at 50K out of college and am still not quite to 100K a year yet.

All I have done is maxed out my 401K every year since 2010, and put the money into low-cost index funds.

~60% of the balance is from principal alone and the ther 40% is from the stock growth.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres another level to this going on in certain places too. Its not enough to have both partners working. Now in places like the bay area if you want to be competitive in the housing market, both partners have to be working high income jobs not just working at all. Even if you have a great title, if your partner doesnt, you will be lapped by people who have vastly more buying power than either of you can ever muster…

Rust belt cities are actually pretty nice, and you can escape that rat race. Maybe you don't want to live there, but they are nice places.

Move to East Palestine or Pontiac MI and wait for this month’s chemical spill to find you?

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By objective standards, it isn't worse. Unfortunately, people don't care about objective standards, once they're not hungry cold and in pain they mostly derive their happiness from how well off they are compared to other people they encounter. By that metric more are worse off now.

This is what we should be discussing - the blatant taking-for-granted of how good things objectively are in favor of a cultural delusion that we are oppressed. We are living in the best of times as measured by infant mortality, lifespans, literacy, poverty, and technology.

Depends on your frame of reference. In America, things have gotten worse in terms of lifespans, maternal health/mortality, and generally healthcare - when compared to 5 years ago. Partially due to the pandemic, but it remains to be seen if this is the start of a downward spiral or if things will recover soon.

Psychologically, people seem to experience less hope and optimism that the future will be better. That is an important concept as well - regardless of whether you think people are delusional - their subjective perceptions still matter.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>a working man could support a family of five, buy a house, a car and afford vacation once or twice a year, plus save enough to retire comfortably. I would say my family history is that of a "working man" that closly fits that narraive.. My grandfather was a WWII vet, after military service was a factory worker that raised 4 kids, in their own home. Let me eliminate some of that illusory rose tint from your worldvie…

> In short home prices are sky high because buyers would never consider, and probally could not legally, raise 4 kids in a 1 bath 950 sqaure foot home. I live in a place the same size as you, minus the garage and the land, as a family of 3 so far. There are plenty of potential homebuyers who would kill for this, and I know of nowhere in the USA that it would be illegal. The problem is that cities limit the number of…

> And these density limits remain because old people swan around moaning that it's inhumane to build studio apartments when everybody wants a 12 sq acre bathroom, and why are there people in tents on the street?

Also Prop 13 in California that transfers wealth from new buyers to boomers who bought a home when it was cheap, and to wealthy buyers who can afford to buy a teardown and rebuild it around a single remaining wall.

But really, almost all of society’s current problems are pushed onto the public by the political power wielded by elderly boomers and retirees. The rest of us would like to do something about climate change and LGBT issues and cost of education but none of that affects boomers either. The elderly are fundamentally disconnected from the future of society because they will not participate in it, and unfortunate most people are not actually mature enough to demand sacrifices without an expectation they will share in the benefits. The meme about “old men planting trees in whose shade they know they will never sit” is not true, and it’s unfair to punish the living and their future from the hand of the dead. To use the term a bit differently than usual, the constitution is not a suicide pact.

We have a lower age limit on voting and there is perpetual talk about raising it to try and curb the political influence of the younger cohort (much like class war, one side is playing hardball, while the other side doesn’t even know they’re playing). Instead, we should keep it the same and add a cap at the age at which you can first draw early social security benefits.

I have heard all the retorts, what about the good boomers etc. But it’s just not good policy to have what are effectively transient participants (similar to how immigrants don’t get to vote) without a long-term stake in society being the ones in political control, even if some of them are well-intentioned.

Again, boomers keep trying to push exactly this change in reverse by trying to raise the voting age. They know there’s a class battle being fought here, but as usual the other side has talked themselves out of even playing the game, like if you don’t acknowledge it then it goes away.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ultra wealthy hired the best to win a game of financial manipulation that the rest of us didn’t even know was being played. The median salary would be six figure if the share of productivity gains was distributed like it was in 1970.

GDP per capita is $80K in the US. I suspect this includes people of all ages, so if we distribute this only to working age, that’s probably close to $100K (six figures)

GDP != salary.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/average-salary-by-ag...

median wage at 45yo (the peak) is $64k.

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