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The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

mstdn.ca

161–170 of 511 posts

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#161

The gig economy has worn many out... The promise of services like social media, Uber, Political Parties, and airBnB that promised to create wealthy entrepreneurs fell flat on it's face after making the people at the top of the pyramids very wealthy. I think that social media really tipped the balance of fairness in the working world... With social media, suddenly Trust fund Babies could fake success, and promote sche…

If someone isn’t successful in making money on that work, though, it means it isn’t very good. I know it’s not a 1:1 result, but in reality, if you put in the hours and you make things people want, you will be successful.

The problem is everyone who works on something they’re passionate about (even if they suck at it) thinks they ought to be compensated, even if their contributions amount to exactly Jack shit.

Meanwhile, I do decent carpentry on the side and am hit up _regularly_ for it, simply because I’m willing to show up. And I make as much per hour as I do in my day job.

The work is out there to be passionate and make things and be successful, but you 1) have to show up and work and 2) have to not suck at it.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#162
Difficult to prove, but I suspect this complaint is one business owners make when they realize their business is going to fail. They know they could get more workers if they paid more, but they also know they can't afford that.

It's always easier to blame the people below you.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#163

As a long-time software engineer and related positions. When covid started it felt as if the world said "We worked enough we need a collective time off"

More like, people realized how nice their life's were if they spent less time at work. I did not understand how much my 45min x 2 commute was draining my stamina before I stopped commuting, e.g.

The mental and financial toll of long commutes was (and still is, to a reduced extent) consistently underestimated. Doubly so if that commute is driven, where one must remain focused on driving and deal with associated frustrations the whole time.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#164

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

> In the past, a working man could support a family of five, buy a house, a car and afford vacation once or twice a year, plus save enough to retire comfortably.

I think this is a bit of a rose-colored rear-view mirror, and to the extent it's true it's a pretty brief period of time historically. Most people in most times had to work pretty hard. If you were a farmer, you worked pretty much all the daylight hours every day. Immigrants in the early part of the 20th century worked very hard, often the man running a small business or doing factory work and the woman cleaning, sewing, cooking, bookkeeping, etc. for hire. And all of that is when the men weren't off fighting a war as a conscripted soldier.

The "working man" who could support a family on his income alone was a product of the post-WWII economy. And he didn't really have to save for retirement, he had a defined-benefit pension (the kind that bankrupted many of their employers in subsequent years).

The fact that today, people can feel pretty picky about the terms of the work they do is a sign that times are pretty good, despite what people may think and say.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#165
post #78

As a tech lead, the big problem I see now is that people are not hungry anymore. The best engineers I've ever worked with were consistently asking for more and leveling up the team at the same time. Now, the post-covid hires, especially the junior engineers, just do the bare minimum to scrape by, and they seem totally unbothered by it. One new hire on my team spends upwards of 2 hours per day "walking her dog." I eve…

I work for a pretty successful company (by any measure), and have had multiple startup exits before that, and I would know it was time to retire immediately if I started thinking like you. > One new hire on my team spends upwards of 2 hours per day "walking her dog." I once came up with the idea for a product which has generated several hundred million dollars in revenue on a dog walk in the middle of the day. This m…

A low of people get jealous when you work smarter. They think that results don’t matter as much as self inflicted sacrifices. Many of them work in the C suites

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a tech lead, the big problem I see now is that people are not hungry anymore. The best engineers I've ever worked with were consistently asking for more and leveling up the team at the same time. Now, the post-covid hires, especially the junior engineers, just do the bare minimum to scrape by, and they seem totally unbothered by it. Because they see management not pulling their weight for the pay they get. Why s…

What do you consider a fair pay for junior engineers in order for them to contribute at the capacity they're expected to? Our fresh college grads are paid a total compensation higher than $200K. Is that not enough to expect working, at minimum , 8 hours a day?

I would dare to say that the person your consider your best engineer probably only had ass on chair 4 hours a day and your don't even realize it.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a tech lead, the big problem I see now is that people are not hungry anymore. The best engineers I've ever worked with were consistently asking for more and leveling up the team at the same time. Now, the post-covid hires, especially the junior engineers, just do the bare minimum to scrape by, and they seem totally unbothered by it. Because they see management not pulling their weight for the pay they get. Why s…

What do you consider a fair pay for junior engineers in order for them to contribute at the capacity they're expected to? Our fresh college grads are paid a total compensation higher than $200K. Is that not enough to expect working, at minimum , 8 hours a day?

Pay = hour expectations isn't reality, and we only pretend it is when we want to abuse juniors. Effort and time are not strongly connected to pay, in office jobs. It's not even clear that they should be (but if so, and we made effective reform that direction, oh boy, it's not the juniors who are gonna feel the most pain).

These juniors are savvy if they've realized this without having to experience work getting easier, more pleasant, and more laid-back the more money they make, directly.

[EDIT] Oh, your pay may actually be connected to this, now that I think about it. If you're leetcoding and such (guessing, based on $200k+ for juniors) you're selecting for a certain culture and set of expectations. "Play the game, get the fat paycheck". Effort not connected to playing said game is just wasted, with the way rewards are dolled out in that world. Not laziness, just rational behavior based on hiring & such being batshit crazy and favoring a rather "prep for the test, the most efficient way possible—the score is all that matters" mindset—which isn't the fault of these folks, they're looking at the system and doing exactly what it demands they do for maximum reward. If they're coming up through prestigious universities, they may well have lived their whole life like that. Check the box, get the reward, prep for checking the next box, and you'll go absolutely nuts from over-work if you don't optimize each step (if you try to do it all in the spirit of the thing, rather than the minimum required by the rules, explicit or implicit). Results focused, just not the results you want... but the ones you're accidentally asking for!

If they're smart, they're doing as much as they need to keep the job, while planning their next, career- and comp-advancing move. Try framing things in terms of the "impact" they'll get to claim if they complete steps X, Y, and Z, and see what happens, LOL. I bet they'll jump at it—that's exactly what they want to be able to talk about when they're looking for the next job in 18-24 months. May be hard to frame, say, maintenance work and minor bugfixes and such that way, though. You probably need to change how you're hiring, if you want people who'll be happy to do those things.

If you're seeing these folks leave for better (higher paid, if nothing else) roles, after a short time, and shaking your head in confusion because you thought they were bad at their jobs—I'd say the above is exactly what's happening. You're getting what you're selecting for. Worth considering, perhaps.

[EDIT EDIT] Above section most-relevant if they're also underperforming according to what you expect. If they're actually getting stuff done but just taking walks... then there's no real problem.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#169
post #109

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

I have heard the argument that a negative effect of the post WW2 "feminist" movement (by that I mean women in the work force) has had the long term effect of causing prices to simply adjust to the dual income household, to the point that now it is a necessity. It is a privileged family today that can afford to live comfortably on only one salary.

Women entering the formal workplace and gradually more and more jobs becoming available to both genders has also inflated traditionally “female” occupations like teachers, nurses, and childcare. When someone who could have trained as a lawyer had to instead become a teacher that kept teacher salaries lower. Nuns serving as teachers made Catholic schools affordable. Now many Catholic schools have a one two punch of the economic opportunity cost of becoming a nun being higher than ever and declining enrollment.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#170
post #109

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

I have heard the argument that a negative effect of the post WW2 "feminist" movement (by that I mean women in the work force) has had the long term effect of causing prices to simply adjust to the dual income household, to the point that now it is a necessity. It is a privileged family today that can afford to live comfortably on only one salary.

Privileged? I worked very hard to get that point of "privileged" to have had two single-job families. In the beginning I worked at different jobs out of necessity and in part, to see what suited me and what suited the work. I learned many different skills that helped me in my personal life - construction, housebuilding, coding (since 1978), electronics, welding, machining, technical diving, industrial rope access, organizational risk management, and leading large teams on world-class, one-of-a-kind projects. I was raised just below or at the poverty level.

I believe the level of lifestyle you may want precludes you from making a single-income household. I am very content with few things even when the times are good. A hike or walk with the family outside doesn't cost much unless you're shopping and eating out all the time while sipping $5 lattes. Plus childcare would cost a pretty significant chunk of rhe second household income, so why not let one parent be with the kids fulltime?

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