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If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

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Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#501

Post by sershe »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #462
sershe wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cause and effect might be reversed. 1) Most people prefer to drive... look at any country that is getting richer - people want to buy cars. 2) It is only when people cannot afford to drive or driving is too inconvenient (traffic, or narrow streets/lack of parking in Europe, or outright restrictions ), they will use alternative modes of transportation. 3) The more people are thus inconvenienced, the more public su…

> 1) Most people prefer to drive.. You don’t know that. You would have to run the experiment - spend equal amount of money on infrastructure for bikes and for cars. Then see. Most British cities are tiny, you can cross most of them on an e-bike in like 15 to 30 minutes. Except London of course. But there is usually no safe way to cross them. When I ask people in London, why are your not cycling, 95% say they are afra…

Here's a great link: "Vehicle ownership starts to grow quickly when countries reach income of about 2,500 per capita in purchasing-power-parity (PPP) terms. Rapid growth continues until income per capita reaches about 10,000. Saturation level is at about 850 vehicles per 1,000 people."

The limiting factor for having tons of cars is income.

https://www.imf.org/-/media/Websites/IMF/imported-flagship-i... [pdf with per-country history]

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#502

Post by sershe »

LampDrewNear wrote: post #499
sershe wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't want to! I literally just walked to the store and it was in absoute perfect conditions - we wanted to go for a walk anyway, the weather is perfect (sunny but not hot), the store is 10min walk from my house, the neighborhood is nice and not drive-thru so there is ~0 non-local traffic. The plan was we go for a walk, and pop by a store and get one item. But as usual it never ends up being that way, so we had…

You can still drive perfectly well in walkable cities. And maybe it's just a TV trope, but do your paper bags lack handles? In Europe essentially all grocery bags have handles and are easy to carry. The amount of food you bought sounds easy to me to carry home, and I don't even lift.

It's a tradeoff - the argument is about car vs walking infrastructure, and while it's nice to have both I'd prefer to lose the latter if I had to make a choice. Driving in Amsterdam is... inconvenient. At least in central areas, I've never been far out.

They have handles, it's still just inconvenient to carry and makes a nice walk into a chore, vs driving with much more groceries per trip.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#503

Post by sershe »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #498
sershe wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't want to! I literally just walked to the store and it was in absoute perfect conditions - we wanted to go for a walk anyway, the weather is perfect (sunny but not hot), the store is 10min walk from my house, the neighborhood is nice and not drive-thru so there is ~0 non-local traffic. The plan was we go for a walk, and pop by a store and get one item. But as usual it never ends up being that way, so we had…

Not gonna lie, having a 10 minute walk ruined by carrying a bag home sounds like you maybe need to deadlift less and cardio more or something. Or maybe get better bags? Walking to stores is an advantage because it allows for a density of services unavailable if parking lots are a serious consideration for businesses. I can go to my local convenience store, and my barber, and a no-waste shop, and my local bar, all in…

I mountaineer too, it's just a chore to walk with groceries, esp. if the weather is bad and you have to do it every 3 days given how little one can carry.

I think I mentioned the drinking aspect in the original comment. I could do all of these things by car, probably faster too... except drinking. So I guess it depends on how often one drinks :)

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#504

Post by xyzelement »

Kuinox wrote: post #455
xyzelement wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. I grew up in eastern Europe and most people didn't have a car - because they couldn't afford it. The few lucky ones that had one used it all the time. I can totally imagine having a kid in NYC or Paris or whatever without a car it's just a pain in the ass.

An appartement in Paris for a family is at least a millions dollar, you are telling me they can't afford a car? No, moving in car is simply inconvenient here. You can walk or take the public transit to get where you want, it's just faster. Lots of parisians have a car, often in a parking spot far from their home, and rarely uses it. Someone commuting to Paris with a car instead of public transit is seen as someone ma…

Again I don't understand your point. Obviously it's possible to live in a city without a car and with kids and some percentage of people will chose to do that for a variety of reasons. Nobody is disputing that.

Both US and other counties have cities where you can live without a car and some people do that. If that's all you are claiming then sure I agree.

My point is simply that the likelihood of someone wanting/needing a car goes up as they have kids. Are you telling me that the likelihood of a Parisian family moving out of the city and/or getting a car doesn't statistically increase with every incremental child? I'd find that hard to believe.

I would also bet that there are very few Parisian families having 3+ kids while it's more likely outside of the city, same as in the US.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#505

Post by angmarsbane »

chrismcb wrote: post #461
grecy wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time a politician anywhere in the world suggests adding more freeways or more lanes to freeways, I think they should be forced to live in LA for a year and do a ~1 hour commute each way in traffic. They need to see first hand what happens when you just add more freeways and more lanes. It's not good.

I lived in a place for most of my life that refused to build freeways "because they didn't want to become like LA" meanwhile more people moved there, traffic got worse. Going "across town" about 15 miles was a burden. You hated to do it. I then moved to a town that had a few freeways and 15 miles away was considered close. The town I grew up in, finally built some cross town roads, and travel time improved. I think y…

Austin?

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#506

Post by fragmede »

plagiarist wrote: post #148
goda90 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have literally seen people scoff at biking or riding the bus as something for poor people. It is a common sentiment.

The sentiment that having money makes one "above" a form of transit is a bit despicable, but it absolutely is the case. I think particularly with public transit. "Hey, would you like to take a multi-leg two hour journey with at least ten minutes of waiting between each leg, or drive fifteen minutes?"

Two hours with a transfer to fifteen minutes is a bit much (not that I doubt such poor public transportation options exist), but the mental toll of driving, even just fifteen minutes is not to be ignored.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#507

Post by dghlsakjg »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #173
dghlsakjg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some American cities? Yes. Any American city? no. Leaving out the obvious cities (NY, Boston, DC Mall), I can think of half a dozen cities off the top of my head that have great walkability: Denver, Boulder, Portland, OR, Seattle, Chicago, Portland, ME, etc. I have wandered for hours in all those cities. American cities have a higher proportion of unwalkable areas, but unwalkable areas exist in every city. I suspect…

> Leaving out the obvious cities (NY, Boston, DC Mall), I can think of half a dozen cities off the top of my head that have great walkability: Denver, Boulder, Portland, OR, Seattle, Chicago, Portland, ME, etc. I have wandered for hours in all those cities. I don't think any of these cities have great walkability. They have acceptable walkability in certain areas, but great? Not even close. A lot of Americans just ha…

I lived in Capitol Hill in Seattle and found it to be a very walkable lifestyle. So much so that I never used my car except to leave the city. I was walking distance to four major grocery stores, dozens of restaurants, buses, trains, etc. I would ride my bike 10ish minutes to SLU to go sailing.

It’s also worth noting that Boulder’s main downtown area is dominated by Pearl Street, on which cars are not allowed ever. Denver has 16th street running from one end of downtown to the other, the only vehicles allowed there are free shuttles.

My point isn’t that American cities are more walkable, it is that it is silly to say that they all aren’t walkable as a rule as the GP said.

Is Barcelona a more walkable city than most American ones? Yes. Are there areas in Barcelona that you would be a fool to try and walk in? Also yes.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#508

Post by xboxnolifes »

sershe wrote: post #501
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) Most people prefer to drive.. You don’t know that. You would have to run the experiment - spend equal amount of money on infrastructure for bikes and for cars. Then see. Most British cities are tiny, you can cross most of them on an e-bike in like 15 to 30 minutes. Except London of course. But there is usually no safe way to cross them. When I ask people in London, why are your not cycling, 95% say they are afra…

Here's a great link: "Vehicle ownership starts to grow quickly when countries reach income of about 2,500 per capita in purchasing-power-parity (PPP) terms. Rapid growth continues until income per capita reaches about 10,000. Saturation level is at about 850 vehicles per 1,000 people." The limiting factor for having tons of cars is income. https://www.imf.org/-/media/Websites/IMF/imported-flagship-i... [pdf with per-…

I fail to see how this accounts for difference in car vs bike infrastructure.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#509

Post by makeitdouble »

sershe wrote: post #493
makeitdouble wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thought exercice: would you enjoy living in a 3x bigger house and drive a small cart from room to room ? with a well adapted house it could be more convenient. Would it be nicer ?

I don't think this is very relevant. I would prefer to live in a 3x bigger house, but it would still be walkable. A reverse (also not very relevant) thought experiment - would you prefer to live in one room that is office/bedroom/bathroom/kitchen, just because you don't have to walk at all, everything is so close, why sprawl? :)

European and asian cities pretty much feel like a 10x - 20x bigger house for many.

You walk down 2 blocks to get some milk and bread for the breakfast, post office is 3 blocks in the other direction, 1 block another way and you have fruits and vegetable. Basically you can treat the immediate surroundings as an extension of your house where you just "go" without a modal distinction of getting into a car, parking, back into the car, parking again.

Even taking a bus or train feels less of a discontinuation as you just walk in walk out and at no point have to switch to a "driver" mode.

Re: If we want a shift to walking we need to prioritize dignity

#510

Post by yawaramin »

sershe wrote: post #502
LampDrewNear wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still drive perfectly well in walkable cities. And maybe it's just a TV trope, but do your paper bags lack handles? In Europe essentially all grocery bags have handles and are easy to carry. The amount of food you bought sounds easy to me to carry home, and I don't even lift.

It's a tradeoff - the argument is about car vs walking infrastructure, and while it's nice to have both I'd prefer to lose the latter if I had to make a choice. Driving in Amsterdam is... inconvenient. At least in central areas, I've never been far out. They have handles, it's still just inconvenient to carry and makes a nice walk into a chore, vs driving with much more groceries per trip.

Sounds like you need one of those walker bags with wheels. It would make grocery walks much easier.
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