Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#391

Post by atonse » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 8:43 PM UTC

shard wrote: post #304

mrguyorama wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A full schedule is bad for a kid. They need to learn how to keep themselves entertained, or plan their own activities, or manage their own time, and they can't do that if they get a day plan from sun up to sun down.

Kids can keep themselves entertained very easily nowadays, YouTube/Tiktok/games can suck hours away in the blink of an eye. It's not like when I was young where going outside and hanging out with friends was the most fun choice.

As a tech person I long for the days of limited choices.

In this age of extreme abundance, we have lost the ability to just daydream, people watch, etc. I’m not glamorizing being bored. I used to hate waiting for 30 mins for the bus.

Sorry this is something I lecture my kids about a lot! :-)

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#392

Post by theptip » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #71

theptip wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WoW is an interesting example. I’m sure there are lessons to be learned in any activity; it’s not like structured playtime is giving you zero information to update your world model. I suppose the question is whether the “learning density” is high or low, and diverse, in video games. I spent a lot of time on single player games as a kid and am open to the idea that MMOs give you more learning (particularly social, of…

That's usually on my mind, especially since my parents did a lot of "you're on X all the time" where X was at least a dozen different things throughout my teenage years. The way I'm approaching it is simply: all things in moderation. Did you go outside today? Do a bit of tidying? Spend some time at the craft table? Go nuts with Super Mario after dinner. Did you wake up and play Mario for a few hours and get cranky wh…

I like the portfolio theory of play. The one thing I don't have a good feel for is, when is it time to let your kids exploit rather than explore? By which I mean, really start to dig into something they click with and obtain mastery?

Seems really hard to tell, and perhaps we should just be skeptical of "easy" / "dopamine hooks" things like games, and perhaps unskeptical of hard things like science, art, etc. -- if a child wants to spend lots of time on a hard thing that's probably a good sign, if they want to spend lots of time on an easy thing that may or may not be good.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#393

Post by uoaei » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #372

uoaei wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's important to give them feedback. That's a different thing from merely thinking for them, however. A (brief) conversation about the effects they may have on others and the feelings they expect others to have would go a long way toward engendering more pro-social considerations.

Perhaps the parent had these discussions with the kids before and 'Control yourselves!' was just a short-hand reminder to exercise some self-control. I wasn't there, so I have no context, but nothing about your story made it sound like the dad was thinking for the kids. (I'd expect that to sound more like 'Stop taking up the wnole sidewalk! Line up single file! Stand still!')

I've seen a lot of kids who "have ADHD" when what they really have are parents who are so anxious they won't let kids act for themselves due to dubious and worn-out "safety" arguments. Then the compulsion they develop is to fit in as much acting-out into their schedule as possible. This appeared to me another case of that.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#394

Post by smogcutter » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 11:38 PM UTC

bcrosby95 wrote: post #298

smogcutter wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you keep your eyes open for it around (neurotypical) adolescents you’ll see that this is very true. Everything they do that they know is observed by others is an experiment. What happens if I say… what happens if I try… what happens if I wear… They’re very keenly tuned in to social feedback, far more so than we may realize as adults. IMO this is also why it’s so important as an adult to be very intentional and una…

> Flat statements like “that’s rude” or “that was very kind” can be very powerful. Labels without understanding is kinda pointless. My friend's 5 year old has translated 'rude' to mean 'something I don't like'. Whenever he gets a timeout he calls his parents rude. It's actually pretty hilarious.

I mean yeah, real life is more complicated than an HN post, and that comment was mostly aimed at kids around 10-14 who are going through this particularly tumultuous, socially exploratory period. (As an aside, learning & applying rules without understanding sounds very developmentally appropriate for a 5 year old).

What I’m really getting at is that we don’t always point out to other adults when they’re being rude, and when we do, our goal isn’t to teach them that they’re being an ass. With kids and teens, it’s worth taking a conscious effort to reframe these kinds of interactions.

Specific language choices are also very important - eg always “that’s rude” and never “you’re rude”.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#395

Post by jjk166 » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 2:32 AM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #257

jjk166 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the last time a job interviewer asked what extracurriculars you did when you were 14? There is an extremely small sliver of society where that one additional extracurricular makes the difference between getting into an excellent school vs a merely great school. For everyone else, the long term value is quite dubious.

As much as you might want it to be, your life right now is not a blank human plus qualifications. Who you are as a person is shaped by your life before this point. A person who has invested in those extra curricular skills will simply be more skilled now, from precise ways (the specific skills learnt) to more general ways (the required concentration and perseverance etc)

That argument falls apart if children can learn when they are not being managed, which they obviously can and do quite well.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#396

Post by m-ee » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 2:40 AM UTC

atonse wrote: post #386

m-ee wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you’re American you are really screwing then over by not paying for college. The FAFSA assumes a parental contribution. It’s not just other parents, but the federal government and all the colleges themselves that have the expectation that you will contribute. There’s no exemption for “I want to teach my kids financial responsibility”. If you’re high income your children will be ineligible for any financial a…

Not at all true. They can choose to go to very good public universities with in state tuition (often around $10-12k per year). We can sit down and discuss the tradeoffs of the degree they are getting vs the earning power of that degree. And the tradeoffs between being a commuter student and one that lives on campus. Or saving money by attending community college the first two years. NONE of those conversations will h…

I don’t have time to look up tuitions for each state, but that’s highly dependent on where you chose to live. Something that your children have no control over.

I certainly did not have a “very good public university” with $10k tuition. My state flagship (Rutgers) was over $20k per year. Other states public universities were often even more expensive, Berkeley would have cost more than any private university I was accepted to.

If you live somewhere like CA, Texas, or Michigan then more power to you, your kids should have great options. But it’s not advice that transfers. And again, the government is of the position that that 40-60k is your responsibility. I don’t agree with the way higher education is managed either but you’re not opting out of it, your just passing the costs to your kids.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#397

Post by pineaux » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 3:16 AM UTC

vacuity wrote: post #335

pineaux wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was already a solved problem. Just get the kids use all the stuff away from parents when they are between 14 and 18. Yes it will do a little bit of brain damage, but getting pissdrunk at that age and having your parents nurse you back to normal is a great experience for a kid. I know this from first hand experience, when I was 14 (it was sorta normal in the Netherlands at that time). I was a lot more carefully w…

I don't know about the Netherlands, but I'm definitely not doing that in the US if I have kids. Also, that might work most of the time, but it's going to hurt when a portion are addicted and can't easily recover.

Its not possible anymore in the Netherlands either and its showing. More abuse of drugs and alcohol.

A big portion of people is going to get addicted anyways. The America has a far higher amount of addicts of all drugs and alcohol compared to the Netherlands. That is mostly policy and some cultural aspects.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#398

Post by bowsamic » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 10:09 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #388

bowsamic wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that the average office worker is obese and depressed then that’s a wild projection. Do you know who is much more likely to be obese and depressed? A poor person. The stuff about AI just makes you sound out of touch with reality. You clearly spend too much time online and it has detached you from real flesh and blood life. Re enter your life

Looking at statistics, average citizen in West world is at least overweight and on a brink of being depressed. I didn’t bump into either statistics based on occupation, but anecdata points to office workers being on frontlines of both. Office workers can easily be poor. Just like other lines of work allow to make plenty of money. Generative AI already does a damn good job at generating illustrations and writing crapp…

No they aren’t lol

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#399

Post by bowsamic » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 10:09 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #389

bowsamic wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very much worth it to optimise for material stuff. Why wouldn’t it be? I’ve never had to starve but I think it would be quite horrible, as would be living in very poor accommodation. I would like to optimise this away

There’s a massive gap between covering the basics and being in rat race optimizing for material stuff. Who cares if you drive a fancy car or a 10 y/o toyota? Both gets you from A to B in a relatively safe manner. If someone does care, that’s his problem. Same applies to pretty much any expenses line. Meanwhile having plenty of time to yourself may help to prevent many health issues and do things that make life wholes…

Sounds like a sad way to live but you do you

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#400

Post by mantas » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 11:58 AM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #399

mantas wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a massive gap between covering the basics and being in rat race optimizing for material stuff. Who cares if you drive a fancy car or a 10 y/o toyota? Both gets you from A to B in a relatively safe manner. If someone does care, that’s his problem. Same applies to pretty much any expenses line. Meanwhile having plenty of time to yourself may help to prevent many health issues and do things that make life wholes…

Sounds like a sad way to live but you do you

Is it? Does having fancy stuff bring you happiness or actually using it?

That’s what I did in my 20ies. I’d freelance during winter with some cross country skiing tours in local woods thrown in. Then wrap up my projects in spring, spend the summer cycling and amateur racing and then start looking for new projects as season wrapped up. I didn’t have money for dance trips but I had a ton of great time on my bicycles and raced at relatively high amateur level.

Would I be happier working 3 months more and spending a couple weeks riding in fancy places with less stamina instead of riding a lot but locally all that time? I don’t think so.

There’s another legendary example in my circles. Dude bought a very nice car. Put on expensive wheels, installed engine tune and all that jazz. He was completely out of money, couldn’t go on any road trip for a while. His girlfriend wasn’t excited to adore the car sitting at the curb whole holiday.