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‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#71

Post by myshpa »

_y5hn wrote: post #64
jacquesm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the big problem with anything involving feeback loops. There is a domain where it's unstable and then a small change can cause big and surprisingly rapid effects. Nature is full of such tricky stuff and there is unfortunately no manual so we are learning a lot of this stuff by experiencing it first hand.

Analogy time: You use a wooden chair for reaching up in high places. Imagine you're a short person and utterly dependent on this chair. It works for 20 year, and it helps you reach what you need in all that time. You never notice much except for some familiar creaking. The chair works every time, and you just take it for granted as a handy tool to have around. But when the wood in that chair snaps, it happens all at…

Analogy time:

You fall, and the floor gives way. You plummet through the floor, down to the basement, and sever an artery on the way down.

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#72

Post by BasedAnon »

myshpa wrote: post #58
bluescrn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Climate change is caused by pollution and overconsumption. We're perfectly capable to change that ... we just don't want to. Yes, we can turn rich countries into poor countries by taking away transport, energy, and protein from the working class, and there's growing support for that approach. But that approach also destroys most of the hope for technological solutions. And even if the richest countries did sacrific…

> we can turn rich countries into poor countries by taking away transport City and economy planning, work from home, basic income, degrowth ... > energy Renewable energy, insulation and heat pumps, not air-conditioners. > protein from the working class That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C c…

>That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity.

Protein is not created equally. It is not possible to maintain a healthy diet using sustainable low-energy sources of plant protein in place of meat. Meat is not an optional part of our diet. There have been plenty of studies detailing the dietary impact of vegan diets.

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#73

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #45
almostnormal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're already well into the territory where we will in all likelihood not escape a grounding. The melting ice will increase sea levels sufficiently to avoid grounding.

That's your best effort at contributing to the discussion?

[deleted]

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#74

Post by myshpa »

BasedAnon wrote: post #70
myshpa wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should use fossil fuels to transition away from fossil fuels asap. And stop using them for things we don't need.

So that people in poorer countries can use more of them in our place to industrialize and then join everyone else in the gangrape of our environment!

https://i.imgur.com/LaEFQmV.png

Source:

https://oxfamilibrary.openrepository.com/bitstream/handle/10...

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#75

Post by 6510 »

myshpa wrote: post #71
_y5hn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analogy time: You use a wooden chair for reaching up in high places. Imagine you're a short person and utterly dependent on this chair. It works for 20 year, and it helps you reach what you need in all that time. You never notice much except for some familiar creaking. The chair works every time, and you just take it for granted as a handy tool to have around. But when the wood in that chair snaps, it happens all at…

Analogy time: You fall, and the floor gives way. You plummet through the floor, down to the basement, and sever an artery on the way down.

All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again.

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#76

Post by myshpa »

BasedAnon wrote: post #72
myshpa wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can turn rich countries into poor countries by taking away transport City and economy planning, work from home, basic income, degrowth ... > energy Renewable energy, insulation and heat pumps, not air-conditioners. > protein from the working class That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C c…

>That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity. Protein is not created equally. It is not possible to maintain a healthy diet using sustainable low-energy sources of plant protein in place of meat. M…

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea...

Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/

Plant-based diets were protective against cancers of the digestive system, with no significant differences between different types of cancer, a meta-analysis based on 3,059,009 subjects

https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health...

Meat tax would boost health and cut healthcare spending: research

https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/over-17000-doctors...

Over 17,000 doctors call on White House to shape nutrition policy on plant-based diets

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." - American Dietetic Association

"A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age." - NHS UK

"[I]t is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." - British Dietetic Association.

"For adults, protein from two or more plant groups daily is like to be adequate. " - World Health Organisation

> There have been plenty of studies detailing the dietary impact of vegan diets

Meat & dairy industry is spending massive amounts of money of keeping the status quo as long as possible, same as with cigarettes or fossil fuels. A lot of those studies are paid for, be aware.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-ind...

Inside big beef’s climate messaging machine: confuse, defend and downplay

https://newrepublic.com/article/171781/meat-culture-war-cric...

Why Right-Wingers Are So Afraid of Men Eating Vegetables

https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrow...

The meat industry is borrowing tactics from Big Oil to obfuscate the truth about climate change

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23778399/media-ignores-cl...

Why the media too often ignores the connection between climate change and meat

https://www.salon.com/2023/05/13/how-big-oil-is-manipulating...

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#77

Post by myshpa »

_y5hn wrote: post #67
revscat wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would need to immediately stop the production and sale of all fossil fuels worldwide, at the point of a gun if necessary. The chances of this happening are zero.

We could theoretically stop all emissions today, and the warming would continue for decades and centuries from current CO2 in the atmosphere: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/jan/16/greenhou...

The solution: large scale reforestation and rewilding.

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#78

Post by bluescrn »

myshpa wrote: post #76
BasedAnon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity. Protein is not created equally. It is not possible to maintain a healthy diet using sustainable low-energy sources of plant protein in place of meat. M…

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ Plant-based diets were protective against cancers of the digestive system, with no significant differences between different types of cancer, a meta-analysis based on 3,059,009 subjects https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health... Meat…

And this is why people are being pushed away from the environmental movement as a whole. As well as the activists blocking roads and throwing paint around.

Significant changes to energy/fuel usage and transport/travel were already hard for people to accept, with vast numbers of jobs/livelihoods so dependent on cars. But trying to take away meat at the same time (let alone all dairy) is just too much to ask, certainly not an election winner.

(So we get to 'conspiracy theories' about the WEF and global policy being dictated undemocratically, with a war on farming that nobody voted for set to cut food production at a time when we're told that the biggest risk from climate change is crop failure and famine...)

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#79

Post by BasedAnon »

myshpa wrote: post #76
BasedAnon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's propaganda, and now you're getting somewhere. We already get 63% of our protein from plants. If we were to extend that to 100%, we could store our entire 1.5C carbon budget through afforesting and rewilding pastures, which would also help restore biodiversity. Protein is not created equally. It is not possible to maintain a healthy diet using sustainable low-energy sources of plant protein in place of meat. M…

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea... Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35719615/ Plant-based diets were protective against cancers of the digestive system, with no significant differences between different types of cancer, a meta-analysis based on 3,059,009 subjects https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/04/meat-tax-would-boost-health... Meat…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

Re: ‘Something weird is going on’: Antarctic sea ice stays at historic lows

#80

Post by BasedAnon »

myshpa wrote: post #74
BasedAnon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that people in poorer countries can use more of them in our place to industrialize and then join everyone else in the gangrape of our environment!

https://i.imgur.com/LaEFQmV.png Source: https://oxfamilibrary.openrepository.com/bitstream/handle/10...

What does this have to do with my point, I clearly said they would industrialize
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