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Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#321
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what works is living by example. and letting the kids grow up in an environment where nobody does drugs. showing them the bad outcome that others suffering from addiction experience may also be instructive. but generally kids do as the parents do. if you have a good relationship with your kids so that they are not trying to take drugs out of protest, then they won't be tempted to try.

I think you'll end up with drug-naive kids, which may be a similar risk. You've just shifted the risk to an older period of their life. Kids need information, not naivete enforced through ignorance.

living by example doesn't mean don't talk to your kids about drugs.

there are only two options: kids learn about drugs by others telling them about it, or they learn by trying them. the latter is dangerous, so the former is the only option. everything else is the environment.

my parents never talked to me about drugs or alcohol. we did talk about it in school though. i simply grew up in a family where alcohol or drugs did not exist, in an environment where kids didn't have easy access to alcohol and where we were generally educated in school to avoid that stuff. so noone did drugs or got drunk at school. maybe a few kids were drinking outside of school but it was never a big thing. i remember a classmate from middleschool saying that he refused to get cigarettes or beer for his dad because it's unhealthy. that's the kind of environment i grew up in. tell me how does that make me drug-naive and put me at risk? later as a student many of my peers frequently drank alcohol with meals, etc, i never did, and was never interested, because that's how i grew up.

of course if that is not your environment then you have to be more proactive about making sure your kids are aware of the dangers, but in general, what has the most value is the example you give as parents. if you drink, you will have a much harder time to convince your kids to not drink.

and for drugs it is my understanding that those who have experience with alcohol are more likely to try harder drugs too. (even just a small percentage) but more important the reverse, those that do not drink alcohol also are unlikely to try harder drugs. my interpretation of that is that if i want my kids to avoid drugs i can do that by not drinking alcohol and showing them that they need not join their peers when they drink.

this is not to say that anyone drinking is putting their kids at risk, but that not drinking is very helpful to reduce that risk.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#322

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How t…

Play is low-consequence exploration.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been wondering: how do we teach kids about addiction (substances, gambling, phone/internet) and its consequences? Theoretical explanation is not effective. Letting them experience it first hand might be too destructive, because of the nature of the addiction. Can any parent chime in what worked and what didn't?

Let them play monopoly with allowance money? /s In all reality the most effective drug and vice talks I ever got were in High School. The first was from our school's substance counselor who was a former crack addict, and mother of one of our fellow students. She just told her story, and talked about all the horrible shit she saw, but never once told us drug war lies. The other was from my English teacher a few weeks…

Fentanyl has changed things, though.

Coke wasn't a big deal as an occasional party drug, but now we hear stories of tainted coke and overdosing. Gotta teach kids about testing all their drugs now.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#324

I wonder if adults can also benefit from unstructured play

They can, but you have to shape it a little bit so that they're out of the comfort zone and playing in a different role than their usual. It's the role, not the formal structure, that is important.

Improv acting, for example, centers simple "improv games". Playing the game imposes moments of vulnerability and creativity. But if you don't add enough context some proportion of the actors will fall into habit and "play like a winner", knocking over everyone else's boundaries by being an asshole.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having. People are terrified of saying anything because of the likely reaction of the kids' parents. The "it takes a village" mindset is gone. If someone's kid runs into you and you so much as say "excuse me" to them, you risk the parents getting in your face, holding up their cellphone camera, yelling "You don't…

Truly. I was at a park concert once, the kind where everyone is sitting, and there was a large family in front of me. One of the kids (around 12 I would guess, old enough in any case) kept standing up, roaming around, and generally blocking the view of the people behind him, even though he wasn't watching the show (he was literally munching on snacks and facing back in the crowd). I wouldn't have cared if he was exci…

Awful parents breed awful kids.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been wondering: how do we teach kids about addiction (substances, gambling, phone/internet) and its consequences? Theoretical explanation is not effective. Letting them experience it first hand might be too destructive, because of the nature of the addiction. Can any parent chime in what worked and what didn't?

Let them play monopoly with allowance money? /s In all reality the most effective drug and vice talks I ever got were in High School. The first was from our school's substance counselor who was a former crack addict, and mother of one of our fellow students. She just told her story, and talked about all the horrible shit she saw, but never once told us drug war lies. The other was from my English teacher a few weeks…

> Let them play monopoly with allowance money?

Calm down, Satan.

In my experience there is nothing what would stop a kid from doing the stupid things. What somewhat mattered is trying to explaing, honestly, the consequences. Sadly, this doesn't work good enough, but sometimes it helps when instead of panicking they panic but remember what to do in the case of emergency.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#327
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would not be a competitive applicant today for many of the same programs I was admitted to back then. Disclaimer: I live in the US but didn’t grow up here. I also grew up in the 90s. In my experience, in higher education the prestige of the school has a smaller impact on learning than most people seem to think. Mostly, it seems to function as networking and a badge on your resume which can open the next door . Bu…

> (although money is good). what is the point of growth if not to make more money? you could quit your faang job and work as a janitor while hacking projects on the side if so inclined. except one has a pathway to 500k+ and the other does not.

> what is the point of growth if not to make more money?

I’d definitely swap those two, for life in general. (Depending on what you mean by growth, which is why I quoted it, because I don’t really subscribe to the implicitly assumed linear progression model.)

Anyway, I’d be the first to say money is important, because of what it lets you do. Similarly, the potential of earning money in the future (should it be needed) provides financial safety, and having faang on resume helps with that. But money also has an aggressive diminishing returns curve for what most people do with it, including me.

A lot of young people are concerned that they have to be competitive early to not have doors close on them, which is what I’m arguing is less true than they are mostly told. Especially for tech. So I was mainly arguing that sacrificing childhood to be molded in the senseless game of early credentialsm and extracurriculars is a tactically meh choice in most cases, and that’s excluding the emotional abuse itself.

> you could quit your faang job and work as a janitor while hacking projects on the side if so inclined.

Already did :) except the janitor part.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#328

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How t…

I’m convinced the late 90s and early 00s was peak growing up years and it’s been going downhill ever since. One major factor in my reluctance to have kids is that there is zero possible way for me to offer a better experience for them compared to what I had.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#329
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't beat anything into submission. I set ground rules and gave her safe ways to be upset. If she misbehaved she lost privileges she enjoys. I never neglected her if that's what you're trying to get at. That's a pretty low-blow to accuse me of based on what I wrote. Be better. Obviously locking children in rooms isn't right. How about this, instead of locking kids in a room, you could try making a toy room and lo…

"beating into submission" is a phrase that does not mean physically beating. > I never neglected her if that's what you're trying to get at. If you did that to a child it would be neglect, that is the point. Children aren't cats. It is more complex with a child. It's easier when they're a baby, but increasingly more subtle as they get older. Nobody is saying you can't take things away from them or set boundaries, but…

> If you did that to a child it would be neglect, that is the point. Children aren't cats.

I would never do that to a child. Even if they had a bowl of food and water and a toilet in the room I wouldn't expect them to be able to take care of themselves. That sounds like something a psychopath would do. Stop straw-manning me, it's incredibly rude, and against the rules. You bring down the discourse of this site when you quote 5 words from a paragraph and leave the rest of the context out. Plus you are not even quoting me directly yet you're using quotes. Stop doing that as well please.

> "Do as I say because I am the boss" is just not good enough.

When did I make that argument?

For the record, I don't believe you should tell children that. I don't understand the difficulty in telling them "The iPad broke and you are not getting another one because you can't take care of it properly. Perhaps you'll get a new one at Christmas." when they break their iPad.

That's what I consider being a boss. Saying those words does not seem difficult to me.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by…

> I don't want a child learning what heat is by falling onto a wood-burning stove! Famously, the Dusun in Borneo teach their children to respect knives by allowing them to play with them (and cut themselves) as toddlers.

i expect that they start with showing them how to use the knives first.

montessori teaches 3 year olds how to properly handle sharp knives by letting them cut the fruits for snack breaks. they also don't use safety scissors but learn how to use real scissors.

a lot of danger is removed by teaching kids how to properly use tools. when they feel how the knife cuts through the fruit, they learn that a knife has a sharp edge, and can cut things.

my son learned to cook at age 8 or 9. yes, he gets burned sometimes, but he knows how to properly use a gas stove and he has learned to be careful with it because he had the opportunity to use it frequently and become familiar with it. he can cook a meal unsupervised, and i guess that will boost his confidence as he tries more complex recipes.

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