Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#151

Post by medvezhenok » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

supportengineer wrote: post #126

ccleve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came here to post exactly this. It is appalling that we live in a neighborhood where everyone can walk, there are plenty of kids that my son knows within a mile, he's 14 and more than old enough to be out on his own, but every one of his friends is in a math class, or French school, or out of town on vacation, constantly. He goes to the park and there is no one there. So he stays home and watches anime. The only wa…

I'm at the age where I'm seeing the endgame of this, our cohort of kids & friends are applying to college. They did all these after-school activities, tutors, sports, etc. They were over programmed over achievers. And guess what, even with their 4.5 GPAs and impressive resumes, they aren't getting into the colleges they want (University of California). So what was the point of all that?

This is the result of NIMBY, but for education. Same as the housing market - once you're in it, you're invested in housing prices not going down (and certainly not build-build-build as we should be doing).

What we should have done is expand access to elite colleges commensurate with demand, and thereby dilute the status of the "elite" college. Harvard still accepts ~2000 people, around the same as 40 years ago, even though demand has skyrocketed. That is basically leading to more and more competition over the same slots, same as the bidding wars in the housing market. And all of the alumni of the University get to ride the wave of more and more exclusivity (they benefit from a low acceptance rate), so this is unlikely to change.

Artificial scarcity rules the day.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#152

Post by ghostpepper » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

lfowles wrote: post #111

HWR_14 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know the toy will break if it's repeatedly thrown down the stairs, so we impose a rule that "we don't do that in our house" For many parents, the toy is expensive enough that it warrants a rule (like the stove.)

Indeed, it's not just that I'm anxious the toy will break. It's that I'm anxious the behavior will continue and the replacement will be broken in short order and so on.

Obviously this depends on the age of the child and the cost of the replacement, which are outside the parent's control, but how quickly the toy is replaced can be a factor too. When a toddler drops a toy behind some furniture (on purpose, multiple times) you can leave it there for a week or two, and they will learn not to do that with things they care about.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#153

Post by NoZebra120vClip » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

shard wrote: post #47

awesomeMilou wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (who are often pushed into scheduled extracurriculars for better academic opportunities) too. Gotta say though, this seems to be purely a thing in the english speaking cultures. Apart from sport and maybe an instrument, extracurriculars aren't a thing in most european countries. Extracurriculars are so peculiar that our ministry of education deems it necessary to make it a mandatory point for teachers to discuss wh…

> this seems to be purely a thing in the english speaking cultures This is a major thing in many East Asian cultures as well, China/Taiwan/Japan/Korea. Korea had to pass a law saying that private academies have to close at 10pm, so that kids aren't studying past midnight, but some academies still stay open secretly as the parents are demanding the extra hours. It's a vicious circle: kids compete for the few spots in…

After bedtime, I would grab a book, creep into the bathroom, and hop into the dry bathtub to read. I preferred this to a flashlight under the covers.

Mom would find me, send me back to bed, and shame me for reading. Then I was further shamed and humiliated when I was fitted for spectacles in third grade. Of course my parents blamed myopia on reading books in poor lighting.

That bathroom was actually the site of innumerable playtimes for me. Battleships and Cartesian divers in the tub, Rubik's cube maintenance, trying to get my alligator lizard to drink from the tap. It was a dingy, dusty playground where I felt kinda safe and clean.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#154

Post by lazide » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:33 PM UTC

taeric wrote: post #144

mantas wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it’s getting worse here. In my youth few kids had scheduled activities. 20 years later, many kids are on a rather tight schedule.

Not really discounting your experiencs, but 20 years ago plenty of folks had scheduled activities. Music lessons didn't get invented in the past two decades. Nor did school/college prep. Indeed, the numbers typically show that those that did this, had a better chance of success at whatever they were scheduled to do. (This fits expectations, too. People succeed at that that they are prepared to do...) Would love to se…

I think you’re confusing things a bit. Of course someone will be more successful at doing thing x if they are scheduled to do thing x.

That is good for planning/preparing for the future.

Being scheduled to the gills means that the ‘now’ is constantly filled with planning/preparing/doing things for the future though.

And with no time for the present or for being able to think/daydream.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#155

Post by SoftTalker » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

nyanpasu64 wrote: post #137

OO000oo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents have every reason for concern, not because there's something wrong with the principal but because there's something wrong with the society their children are entering. The parents realize that their children will be screwed if they don't get into a good college, and the poorer parents need scholarships too! The principal's philosophical musings won't pay the bills.

My parents drove me to burnout, dropping out of college, and becoming an anxious traumatized wreck, by only providing support in response to achievements, and destroying my self-worth whenever I strayed from their chosen path of maximizing academic accomplishments to get into the most prestigious and stressful college possible. I don't plan to have kids, because I'm not doing well enough to provide an environment of…

Kids don't need a college degree to avoid homelessness or starvation. They do need valuable skills, but that could be HVAC, electrician, carpenter, mechanic, any number of things that don't take anything more than some community/vocational college or just working your way up from entry-level to get into.

People who are homeless or starving are mainly mentally ill, or simply have no skills to offer any employer and no desire to do any better.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#156

Post by lazide » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

vitaflo wrote: post #130

SoftTalker wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That goes back to a time when most homes had a stay-at-home homemaker. Today, I'm not really crazy about the idea of a random pop-in, having to cut the few hours of time that I do have for laundry, dishes, or just a bit of down time, to have to make coffee and find snacks and sit down for a chat. If I were home all day that would be quite different, or so I think.

Where I grew up people still do pop ins. You get around your problem by helping the person out with what they were doing when you popped in. Doing the dishes when you pop in? Cool, you get to dry them as I wash. Everyone basically follows this rule. There’s no expectation of entertaining guests if you pop in for a visit.

That works if someone isn’t frantically trying to get from point A to point B, or so overwhelmed they are trying to find some time to stop and think. That’s the challenge for most Suburban parents around here anyway.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#157

Post by medvezhenok » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:37 PM UTC

teaearlgraycold wrote: post #127

atonse wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

haha I have been maximizing the annoyance level of my parents and others by telling my kids these things: - don’t focus on GPA, focus on actually gaining knowledge and understanding how the world works. good grades are a measure of how you understand things. they should never be the goal. I was a C student and I am more curious about things than many of my peers with fancy degrees. - forge your own path, there is alw…

In school I didn't care about grades. Still went to a good college. In college I didn't care about grades. Still graduated. At work I don't care about promotions. I still get raises well above inflation and am doing great.

You happened to luck out by choosing a career that's in demand (whether consciously or unconsciously), and are probably pretty good at it. Otherwise your story would sound very different. I am the same way, but straddle the professional world and the artistic world (trained / educated in both), and certainly appreciate the randomness involved and how much luck was involved in the fact that I happened to be interested in tech (and had the opportunity to pursue it when I did).

I have many friends without the same opportunities and I would be struggling just as much as them if it weren't for the tech bits (and a little bit of being in the right place at the right time)

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#158

Post by dunkmaster » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:38 PM UTC

I wonder if adults can also benefit from unstructured play

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#159

Post by MisterBastahrd » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:40 PM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #68

Waterluvian wrote: post #9

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How t…

Very true with rough and tumble play as well. Which i imagine is virtually non-existant for kids raised only by single mothers. And is extremely important for adolescent boy.s Basically it teaches limits - what hurts and what causes pain to others. And overall leads to much healthier social development. Jordan Peterson talks a lot about this https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc

How on earth do you even get to the conclusion that rough and tumble play is off limit for kids of single mothers? Those kids are much more likely to go unsupervised for extended periods of times and are also more likely to learn life skills earlier as they support their mother.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#160

Post by taeric » Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 7:40 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #154

taeric wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really discounting your experiencs, but 20 years ago plenty of folks had scheduled activities. Music lessons didn't get invented in the past two decades. Nor did school/college prep. Indeed, the numbers typically show that those that did this, had a better chance of success at whatever they were scheduled to do. (This fits expectations, too. People succeed at that that they are prepared to do...) Would love to se…

I think you’re confusing things a bit. Of course someone will be more successful at doing thing x if they are scheduled to do thing x. That is good for planning/preparing for the future. Being scheduled to the gills means that the ‘now’ is constantly filled with planning/preparing/doing things for the future though. And with no time for the present or for being able to think/daydream.

I'm not confusing it. I'm questioning if people are really more scheduled today.

Especially as we get to middle and high school. Many of us had jobs back then. Isn't uncommon for many small businesses to have a lot of help they use their children for. Not even going back to farms. Though, hard not to see all of the chores that many of those would have around the place as scheduled.

Edit: Tried to stealth fix, but I did flip a less to a more at the top there. Apologies for anyone that may respond to my mistake there.