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Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't allow your kids to fuck up, they will never build healthy behaviors around fucking up. It's very helpful for kids to give them safe chances to fuck up.

I've been wondering: how do we teach kids about addiction (substances, gambling, phone/internet) and its consequences? Theoretical explanation is not effective. Letting them experience it first hand might be too destructive, because of the nature of the addiction. Can any parent chime in what worked and what didn't?

Let them play monopoly with allowance money?

/s

In all reality the most effective drug and vice talks I ever got were in High School.

The first was from our school's substance counselor who was a former crack addict, and mother of one of our fellow students. She just told her story, and talked about all the horrible shit she saw, but never once told us drug war lies.

The other was from my English teacher a few weeks before graduation. The gist of it was: "there's nothing I can say that will stop you from experimenting with drugs. A little bit of drugs probably won't ruin your lives, and might be fun, but pay attention to the people who don't moderate, and the people who do. The results speak for themselves."

What it came down to was it was the two people that were honest with us who got heard. Some DARE cop lecturing us from a DEA handout about how marijuana addiction would ruin our lives didn't work, because kids aren't stupid, and they know BS when they hear it.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm at the age where I'm seeing the endgame of this, our cohort of kids & friends are applying to college. They did all these after-school activities, tutors, sports, etc. They were over programmed over achievers. And guess what, even with their 4.5 GPAs and impressive resumes, they aren't getting into the colleges they want (University of California). So what was the point of all that?

This is the result of NIMBY, but for education. Same as the housing market - once you're in it, you're invested in housing prices not going down (and certainly not build-build-build as we should be doing). What we should have done is expand access to elite colleges commensurate with demand, and thereby dilute the status of the "elite" college. Harvard still accepts ~2000 people, around the same as 40 years ago, even…

Better to not have “elite” colleges at all.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't allow your kids to fuck up, they will never build healthy behaviors around fucking up. It's very helpful for kids to give them safe chances to fuck up.

I've been wondering: how do we teach kids about addiction (substances, gambling, phone/internet) and its consequences? Theoretical explanation is not effective. Letting them experience it first hand might be too destructive, because of the nature of the addiction. Can any parent chime in what worked and what didn't?

I've been day dreaming about as more social data goes public on the internet how can that enable us to peer into the lives of folks who post material and leak details of their lives online. Can sociological studies be made where these bad choices can be reviewed in accelerated form where the individuals who picked the wrong path show the fruits of their choices visually and the decline is evident just looking at them and hearing the things they talk about.

Not sure how feasible it is, but I think with all the photo and video data we now have on hand what sort of longitudinal studies we can produce from imagery alone with the occasional detail and context self professed by the individuals involved.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by…

Of course we told (many times) our 3 yr old son not to put his hand on the stove. And one day he just had to try it and feel what all these stories were about. He started crying immediately. We went to the hospital and came back rather quick. It wasn't so bad, just had to have a bandage for a couple of days. Some weeks later he does it again. On purpuse. !!?? I tell my brother and he answers: "I kind of understand hi…

Yeah, the idea that kids will only do stupid things once isn't necessarily true.

Similar story: I have a good friend who, as a kid, regularly had to have poison control called for him. It didn't matter what his parents did to hide the stuff he shouldn't drink, he would still try to get to it and drink it. Despite having to have his stomach pumped multiple times.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My young kids would be totally unaware if they were bumping into others, or causing them to stop abruptly, or otherwise interfering with others. Of course if those strangers yelled at them or provided some less harsh form of feedback it might register with them, but I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having.

> I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having. People are terrified of saying anything because of the likely reaction of the kids' parents. The "it takes a village" mindset is gone. If someone's kid runs into you and you so much as say "excuse me" to them, you risk the parents getting in your face, holding up their cellphone camera, yelling "You don't…

Truly.

I was at a park concert once, the kind where everyone is sitting, and there was a large family in front of me. One of the kids (around 12 I would guess, old enough in any case) kept standing up, roaming around, and generally blocking the view of the people behind him, even though he wasn't watching the show (he was literally munching on snacks and facing back in the crowd). I wouldn't have cared if he was excited, dancing, enjoying the show, but that was just not the case.

I asked him if he could sit down so I could see. His dad immediately got in my face and demanded that I apologize to his son. He didn't leave until the police got involved.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#287
We've normalized institutionalizing children in institutions that will never let them take any risks due to insurance concerns. So many colleagues and friends put their children in day care a few weeks after birth and then straight to school. These institutions are naturally conservative and don't let children engage in the kind of rough and tumble play that they need. Moreover, in order to appeal to parents, they focus on doing 'activities' with the child.

My children are at home with my wife (not school age yet). This is apparently abnormal now. So many people have expressed concern that our daughter is not in preschool or daycare. My own mother is concerned she hasn't started academic work like my niece and nephew (they're all around four and five). A neighbor has commented that we're pursuing an 'alternative' lifestyle just by having our kids at home. It's crazy.

Now back to play deprivation. Hot take: the play at preschool, etc is not the same as play with parents, family, and friends. At the end of the day, daycares, schools, etc are businesses (yes, even public schools) that need to protect themselves from liability, which means they are naturally going to promulgate the safety culture that we now know leads to all sorts of mental health issues for teenagers. To get around the issue of lack of play, they announce new activities for the kids. One preschool we were looking at bragged that they did a 'research project' with the children! Now, I'm sure research projects while sitting inside carry less liability concerns, but I'm not sure a preschooler needs that. But, this is the best business decision as they get the benefits (low insurance premiums and ability to get more revenue by enrolling more kids) while they outsource the problems (a teen's mental health issues are the parents problem).

We are lucky to have an active community and my wife and other stay at home moms take the kids on play dates basically every day. On the days they're not with friends, they're at one of the grandparent's houses. Over the summer, they've done things like gone hiking, gone fruit picking, zoos, museums, playgrounds, pools, etc with other kids. The best part is that, since it's not a professional environment, the kids get to do things like jump off rocks, fight with each other, fall of playground equipment, run down hills, climb tall trees, etc. Now of course, not all parents are like this, and some probably think my wife is negligent (I've seen many of these parents at the playground and they seem dreadfully boring). However, some parents allow their kids to play. On the other hand, I've never met a teacher or daycare worker that would allow these things. My carers growing up certainly wouldn't. I don't even blame the teacher; they're often watching 10+ kids at a time, and it's simply impossible to pay attention to a kid doing anything fun at that scale.

But, when you have a group of adult friends supervising children, what ends up happening is that the adults sit around having fun, while the children play, which is awesome. So many times I've seen one of the kids come up to the adults with a complaint about play, and the unvarying response from all the adults is "if you're not having fun playing, why don't you sit down and engage with the adults?" Sure enough, after you put it that way, every kid goes back to playing regardless of whatever slight initially sent them away.

We need to normalize being a child again, and we need to have an honest conversation about how to make that possible.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't allow your kids to fuck up, they will never build healthy behaviors around fucking up. It's very helpful for kids to give them safe chances to fuck up.

I've been wondering: how do we teach kids about addiction (substances, gambling, phone/internet) and its consequences? Theoretical explanation is not effective. Letting them experience it first hand might be too destructive, because of the nature of the addiction. Can any parent chime in what worked and what didn't?

what works is living by example. and letting the kids grow up in an environment where nobody does drugs. showing them the bad outcome that others suffering from addiction experience may also be instructive. but generally kids do as the parents do. if you have a good relationship with your kids so that they are not trying to take drugs out of protest, then they won't be tempted to try.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modern society can't seem to tolerate even a single dead children You mean parents can't seem to tolerate even a single dead child. And that's true, especially when most parents only ever have one or two children. Obviously they don't want them to die. To parents, their children aren't an abstract idea or a number that they can rationalize away.

except when someone shoots up their school, it seems

I don't understand what you mean, but I might be missing something since school shootings aren't a thing here.

Are you saying that parents don't care when their children are killed in a school shooting?

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