Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How India Became America

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 97 posts

Re: How India Became America

#61

Post by furiouslysleepy »

pavanky wrote: post #25
edderly wrote: post #3

Before the elites in India consider themselves comparable to America, I would hope they address the swingeing poverty and piss poor literacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_r...

1) Literacy The problem with the 75 % literacy is that many of those uneducated people are old and can not be taught now. The literacy of youth is about 85% which is still bad, but the number is gaining exponentially and should be near American levels in 15 years. That is less than a generation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India 2) Poverty India has been free for 65 years. This was after 200 years of Bri…

I take those literacy and poverty numbers with a grain of salt -- they're manufactured by the govt to make itself look good. While literacy and poverty have both been addressed somewhat, it's a far cry from the official numbers. And frankly I'm worried that the population is growing faster than people are falling out of poverty.

Re: How India Became America

#62

Post by furiouslysleepy »

wisty wrote: post #51
pavanky wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Literacy The problem with the 75 % literacy is that many of those uneducated people are old and can not be taught now. The literacy of youth is about 85% which is still bad, but the number is gaining exponentially and should be near American levels in 15 years. That is less than a generation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India 2) Poverty India has been free for 65 years. This was after 200 years of Bri…

I don't think the "resource strip-mining" probably wasn't that big a factor. The big problem was, they used "divide and conquer". The British were masters at it - find a minority in a region, and give them guns and military assistance. The minorities can now be relied on to keep the rest of the population under control, and they can't rebel against the British for fear of a reprisal from the majority. The problem is,…

No, resource strip-mining was a HUGE problem, and was compounded by the fact that India missed the Industrial Revolution at least partially because the British willfully sabotaged Indian attempts to gain technology.

(It was in the interests of the British to force India to sell them raw materials at low prices, feed it to industries in Britan, and sell it back to India as a finished product. In those days, gold was money, and India had a lot of gold.)

Re: How India Became America

#63

Post by furiouslysleepy »

rushabh wrote: post #15
edderly wrote: post #3

Before the elites in India consider themselves comparable to America, I would hope they address the swingeing poverty and piss poor literacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_r...

It would be interesting to know what the elites of America would do if it was easy for a poor person to board a flight and land in the US. I guess stop them at the door by not allowing visas. poverty and human suffering is a burden that must be shared by everyone who is aware of it. Americans owe their prosperity to many historic factors, including a near virgin land and colonising a native population, apart from the…

Let's not forget the slave trade.

Re: How India Became America

#64

Post by furiouslysleepy »

farnsworth wrote: post #4
kghose wrote: post #2

I could write a bit more, but the summary of what I would say, having lived in India for about 10 years, mostly during my turbulent teens, is: 1. Poverty is not a virtue. 2. There was evil in the old days too

I don't have any specific experience with India but I am also always a little skeptical with attitudes like that in the second half of the article. It seems to just be another instance of 'the good old days' syndrome. Especially the anecdote about violence - surely there were never murders in India before McDonald's moved in.

I especially love the part about Panchayats losing their authority -- those old fucks need to all resign, and quickly.

I'm not being anti-tradition or whatever. Panchayats routinely carry out horrific human rights violations against women and lower casts. This barbaric system has to be replaced by actual courts.

Re: How India Became America

#65

Post by mds101 »

furiouslysleepy wrote: post #59
mds101 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the reality is that we are a dirt poor country with not just deep institutional problems, but also moral and psychological ones. I was searching for the words to express this for more than ten minutes before I read your comment. The key here is 'moral and psychological problems'. To cite just one example, there was a lot of ruckus about the 2G Scam and the Lokpal bill recently. We believe that the guy who got 17200…

Ironically, I agree with the comment you're replying to but not with you. Political hypocrisy favoring people you like is seen everywhere. Even if that were NOT the case, I find it difficult to get less worked up about 1,72,00,00,00,000 rupees than maybe 5-10,00,000 rupees. The middle-class attitude to not risk much is also something we should not blame Indians for -- remember that most of the middle class (that's in…

How many people have you heard stealing 1,72,00,00,00,000 rupees? And how many have you heard stealing 10,000 rupees? My point was that we get worked up for one time theft of XXXX rupees, whereas we consider thousands of class C government employees demanding anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 rupees from hundreds of people everyday as passable.

Also, why should I not blame middle class Indians for what they are (not) doing? The middle class in India is a huge section of people. If you want something you should be prepared to risk everything and fight for it. If you are not willing to risk it, then you deserve what you get. Imagine the benefits we can reap in future if we are willing to duke it out now.

Also, this risk averse attitude is the reason why we were ruled by the British for 200 years. Only once people started risking everything they had did we get the Independence we deserved. Why should fighting inept politicians who are ruining my country be any different from fighting a foreign aggresor?

Re: How India Became America

#66

Post by mds101 »

furiouslysleepy wrote: post #57
mds101 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you misinterpreted his words. Being an 'Indian businessperson' itself is not done much because of the 'play it safe' attitude. Yes, Indians are that risk-averse.

Well, most people around the world are averse to business. Is there really a bigger proportion of Chinese or Russian or Egyptian businesspersons than Indian? (In fact, India has a handful of extremely business-minded communities -- the Marwadis and the Gujaratis, and to a lesser extent the Punjabis, Sindhis and Malayalis. If anything, India does relatively well on this metric.)

Well the Marwadis and Gujaratis have been traders and businessmen since ancient times. It's kind of like the son of a farmer being a farmer himself. How many daily wage labourers have started their own businesses? Or for that matter, how many IT MNC employees have?

I do not know if there is a bigger proportion of Chinese/Russian/Egyptian businessmen, but I do know that the amount of social stigma attached to leaving a well paying job to do a startup is significantly higher in India than in most other countries.

Re: How India Became America

#67

Post by furiouslysleepy »

mds101 wrote: post #65
furiouslysleepy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, I agree with the comment you're replying to but not with you. Political hypocrisy favoring people you like is seen everywhere. Even if that were NOT the case, I find it difficult to get less worked up about 1,72,00,00,00,000 rupees than maybe 5-10,00,000 rupees. The middle-class attitude to not risk much is also something we should not blame Indians for -- remember that most of the middle class (that's in…

How many people have you heard stealing 1,72,00,00,00,000 rupees? And how many have you heard stealing 10,000 rupees? My point was that we get worked up for one time theft of XXXX rupees, whereas we consider thousands of class C government employees demanding anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 rupees from hundreds of people everyday as passable. Also, why should I not blame middle class Indians for what they are (not) doin…

Well, I mean, obviously. Not that it's passable, but do you want to spend energy bringing every pickpocket to justice or do you want to spend energy bringing justice to ONE man who scammed the country out of as much money as HALF IT'S POPULATION makes in a YEAR?

I mean, prioritize.

Re: How India Became America

#68

Post by wisty »

mds101 wrote: post #66
furiouslysleepy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, most people around the world are averse to business. Is there really a bigger proportion of Chinese or Russian or Egyptian businesspersons than Indian? (In fact, India has a handful of extremely business-minded communities -- the Marwadis and the Gujaratis, and to a lesser extent the Punjabis, Sindhis and Malayalis. If anything, India does relatively well on this metric.)

Well the Marwadis and Gujaratis have been traders and businessmen since ancient times. It's kind of like the son of a farmer being a farmer himself. How many daily wage labourers have started their own businesses? Or for that matter, how many IT MNC employees have? I do not know if there is a bigger proportion of Chinese/Russian/Egyptian businessmen, but I do know that the amount of social stigma attached to leaving…

Chinese are also massively risk-adverse (despite having a massive respect for businessmen). The only Chinese who start businesses are those who have the luxury of being able to afford to take risks (rich parents), and those who can't afford not to.

Re: How India Became America

#69

Post by abhaga »

furiouslysleepy wrote: post #64
farnsworth wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any specific experience with India but I am also always a little skeptical with attitudes like that in the second half of the article. It seems to just be another instance of 'the good old days' syndrome. Especially the anecdote about violence - surely there were never murders in India before McDonald's moved in.

I especially love the part about Panchayats losing their authority -- those old fucks need to all resign, and quickly. I'm not being anti-tradition or whatever. Panchayats routinely carry out horrific human rights violations against women and lower casts. This barbaric system has to be replaced by actual courts.

A very broad generalization. You are confusing Panchayats with "Khap Panchayats" and other traditional community panchayats which have been in news for honor killings and such. These panchayats are traditional bodies with no powers sanctioned by law or constitution.

Separate from that, there is a whole system of local governance based on panchayats. These bodies play a very important role in letting the local people participate in decision making process for things which are going to affect them. Members of these panchayats are elected through proper electoral process and are not "old fucks" usually. It is a form of decentralization of power which is sanctioned by law and is a good thing.

Post reply on HN