I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…
I agree with your overall ideal of free access to information but I disagree that harassment is a necessary or even effective option to push against this. I think the harassment puts us in a category of ineffective, bitter malcontents and that’s not what we are. We are capable of going to elsewhere to free and open access to information, and we would be better off spending our energy on positively influencing others…
Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
261–270 of 876 posts
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#262I feel like I have to repeat this, since so much is at stake here, where it is about the preservation of the web as we know it today, at the peril of having it turned into yet another walled garden: The only way around the dystopia this will lead to is to constantly and relentlessly shame and even harass all those involved in helping create it. The scolding in the issue tracker of that wretched "project" shall flow l…
If this ever helped, we wouldn't have absolutely unethical products created. Turns out people's morals have a price tag, that Google and others are willing to pay their employees.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#263I was watching a video about nesting in CSS and how it's just in Chrome and comments were all about how cool it is and how they can't wait to use it, and so on, and so forth. I think it's quite a representative example: we can do that much better with SASS today, but I guess Google needs to keep features pushing at full speed so no one else can keep up. We developers are so gullible. Just give us some shiny things an…
> I was watching a video about nesting in CSS and how it's just in Chrome Nested CSS is supported in the latest version of all major browsers. https://caniuse.com/css-nesting
The center row of versions with the gold border is how caniuse indicates the current release.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#264If this isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back, there is never going to be one. Google needs to be broken up. They own the browser market. They own the web (through Adwords). They own Search. They own mobile. They own most of the video sharing market with 2.5 billion monthly annual users. They own a good chunk of email with 1.2 billion monthly annual users. They have amassed an incomprehensible amount of power…
And I'm not American so it's not even some sort of patriotic comment. If Europe , or anywhere else, had a Google sized Behemoth, they wouldn't mess with it no matter how "anti tech" they might seem now. If anything they are anti tech because they don't want foreign big tech to have massive influence over them. You'd bet they wouldn't cripple big tech if they were European. On the other hand, as long as they are American that massive power is a feature, not a bug for the US government.
The reaction to Tiktok is a good example of how nationalism/geopolitics shape the reaction to big tech, which is why google is probably safe.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#265Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
WEI turns non-compliant browsers into second-class citizens. You’re perfectly free to use whatever compliant browser engine and OS combo you like today – but in a world with WEI, you’ll have to use Approved Chrome on an Approved OS on Approved Hardware with Approved Signing Keys, or you won’t be able to sign into your bank.
isn't this good? banks can raise security while we can still use any browser to check hackers news! or this 3 cows story?
Are you okay with buying a new computer running the operating system and browser someone else wants to access your bank's web site?
You can still use you current computer and bowser to access HN.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
WEI turns non-compliant browsers into second-class citizens. You’re perfectly free to use whatever compliant browser engine and OS combo you like today – but in a world with WEI, you’ll have to use Approved Chrome on an Approved OS on Approved Hardware with Approved Signing Keys, or you won’t be able to sign into your bank.
isn't this good? banks can raise security while we can still use any browser to check hackers news! or this 3 cows story?
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
So can Microsoft and Amazon, surely? Yet they're getting a lot of scrutiny from the FTC right now.
Wake me up with they actually do something instead of making announcements of looking into the possibility of perhaps one day sending a strongly worded letter asking their tech buddies to calm down a little bit, if they're so inclined. Until then, this is campaign fodder and nothing else.
"FTC rewrites rules on Big Tech mergers with aim to ease monopoly-busting"
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/ftc-rewrites-rul...
"FTC prepares “the big one,” a major lawsuit targeting Amazon’s core business"
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/ftc-prepares-the...
"The Federal Trade Commission sued Amazon today, claiming the online giant violated US law by tricking consumers into signing up for the $14.99-per-month Amazon Prime subscription service and making it annoyingly difficult to cancel."
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/ftc-sues-amazon-...
"FTC files to block Microsoft’s $69B Activision Blizzard acquisition"
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/06/report-ftc-will-file-...
"A Federal Trade Commission lawsuit filed yesterday accused Ring, the home security camera company owned by Amazon, of invading users' privacy"
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/06/ftc-amazon-ring-...
"Microsoft will pay $20 million to settle an FTC complaint that its Xbox platform illegally collected and retained information about children without their parents' consent"
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/06/xbox-coppa-violations...
And that's all just from one news source, in the last three months.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
> No one has paid for a browser in almost 3 decades and even then few did. Considering NCSA Mosaic’s initial release was just 30 years ago this year and it’s considered the first browser, think you might be using a bit of hyperbole there? Twenty years would’ve been more accurate.
MSIE was free, 28 years ago in late 1995, and while Netscape did take 5 years to follow suit, by 1998 Netscape was not in a healthy position because of the free competition.
Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium
#270As someone who is a somewhat new to web technologies, can someone really explain why this is bad? I saw the techical discussions in the PRs made to the WEI repo but it was all super technical that I was not able to understand the arguments made for and against it.
In practice, this will make it harder, but not impossible, to run ad blockers. Now instead of just finding and installing a plugin, you'll have to first find and install a forked browser that implements the attestation as something like 'return true'. This will predictably decrease the number of people blocking ads.
Personally, I don't object to this. The easy solution for most people is simply: don't consume the content. Or pay money instead of watching ads. Content creators, it must be said, also have the option of self-hosting and/or creating content as a hobby rather than a career. As someone who has grown more and more despairing of any paid-for speech, especially by ads, I welcome this change.
Far more troubling is the possibility of attestation for "important apps" like banking or government. In general this mechanism gives the org a way to prevent you from doing what you want with your data. For example, they can prevent you from scraping data and automating end-user tasks. This takes away your degrees-of-freedom, and using a modified browser will certainly become an actionable offense. In my view this is by far the more troubling aspect of this change, since it take away significant aspects of user autonomy in a context where it matters most.
Technically sophisticated users will note that it's not possible to secure a client, and foolish to try. This misses the point. These changes stochastically change behaviors "in the large", like a shopping center that offers two lanes in and one lane out, or two escalators in and one out. This represents a net transfer of power from the less powerful to the more powerful, and therefore deserves to be opposed.
EDIT: please don't downvote, but rather reply with your objection.