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Have attention spans been declining?

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Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#461

Post by idopmstuff »

MeltedVoltage wrote: post #438
idopmstuff wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clearly watching 15 second short clips instead of reading books has had a detrimental effect. This isn't clear and very much depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Want to get deeply engrossed in fiction? Sure. On the other hand, I'm currently reading a book about sleep training a baby that's ~20 years old, and it's way too long - just jam packed with repetition and fluff that doesn't help at all. There's rea…

But how would you judge the quality of 15 second videos? It's crucial to be able to push through that in order to make a good judgement if the content is any good. The inability to think and judge critically is a huge problem nowadays in my opinion.

How do I judge the quality of the needlessly long book? I would argue that 15 second videos are better for this, because I can easily watch a bunch of them from different sources to corroborate what I see. I can also research the quality of the video's creator, just as I can research the book's author.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#462

Post by somenameforme »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #404
somenameforme wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing has changed dramatically in education over just the past 100 years. This [1] is an entrance exam for Harvard in 1869. It was expected that the applicant would be fluent in Greek, Latin, English, that they would have a exceptional grasp of history and geography across the entire world, be able to carry out complex mathematical calculations, compose geometric proofs, and more. That trend also was the same as…

I have to disagree. Your example illustrates that the quality demands of Harvard entry have declined and it's reasonable to assume that other universities have also become more open, as you claim. You're right about that. Universities are less elitist than they used to be. Nevertheless, the overall demands in higher education have increased tremendously and the courses have also become more focused. In most disciplin…

Why would you call it elitist? From my perspective something like this is the ultimate 'democratization' of education. If you can pass the test - you're in, regardless of who you might otherwise be (or not be). For instance one individual who would have passed a similar exam was Richard Greener [1]. He was the first black man to graduate from Harvard. He did so in 1870, shortly after the Civil War, for some social context. He would, unsurprisingly, go on to lead an extremely distinguished life. Passing the test would obviously require a rigorous dedication and pursuit to academic knowledge, but what is that if not the most pure definition of what college ought be?

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Theodore_Greener

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#463

Post by P_I_Staker »

itronitron wrote: post #408
pwpw wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Final anecdote to "prove" my point we did not lose our attention. I have taken ADHD-diagnosed boys to camp and fish. Of the twelve (ages 12-16), only one could not sit patiently and watch the line and bobber for extended period. You’re completely misrepresenting ADHD, so I don’t see how this anecdote proves your point. ADHD isn’t the inability to focus. In fact, it often comes with the ability to hyperfocus better…

So ADHD is a mismatch of people to the current environment/society rather than a neurotype?

No it's a disorder. What you're saying may be true to an extent, but understanding how the condition works, and how people function, it's a disorder. I think that's a step beyond what you said.

Not everyone with unmedicated and untreated with ADHD may feel like they have trouble functioning or a disorder, but many do. It's obvious if you look at their lives. Many kill themselves over it.

It may be true that a better fit for society could be incredibly helpful. In fact I think it may be one the single most beneficial thing we could do for ADHD. That said, lots of people with it feel it's a hindrance. ie. they can't live meaningful lives.

Suppose there was a perfectly accepting society, what would that mean? I just drift around starting and stopping hobbies, not forming deep friendships, contributing to society, or even big pointless achievements like building some big sandcastle? This is really the ultimate solution?

Ideally, people with ADHD should be able to choose to conform or not based on how they feel the condition effects them. We can find solutions that are practical (unlike previously described).

To get back to your key point, perhaps there is some hypothetical society where ADHD thrives. It's not now. I doubt it was ever for some people with ADHD. It's harsh, but basic life is really hard for people with severe ADHD.

My theory is that there's advantages also, that may be completely disconnected with the drawbacks. It could just be that some people have a type of ADHD that has really have negative symptoms. I'm also confident it's heavily under-diagnosed, and a small percentage, but huge number slip detection, based on it being "their personality".

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#464

Post by Spooky23 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #428
mlyle wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side is that when people get used to consuming content in 30 second blipverts, they become unable to maintain attention through a 10 second break in the action. I don't know for sure about causation, but the students that I see incessantly consume tiktok completely lose state and working context in a very short time. It's a very strong correlation. (And, I disagree a bit with your premise: for those of us wh…

The flip side is that when people get used to consuming content in 30 second blipverts, they become unable to maintain attention through a 10 second break in the action. I see this written so frequently. Is there any studies to back up this claim? Please forgive me: Normally, I abhor the "citation please" type of response, but this claim is misleading to me. It just sounds like grumpy old person complaining about spe…

I doubt there are controlled studies, but you can probably make a reasonable hypothesis based on viewing habits at different ages. Old people in 1993 watched Bonanza reruns; in 2023 they’re hooked to the constant crisis of cable news.

Anecdotally, I’ve definitely seen a shift in corporate comms as people gravitate to IM and text as opposed to email, driven both by habit and by avoiding accountability as email audit has become common.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#465

Post by dash2 »

bamfly wrote: post #454
dash2 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you written up your lifestyle anywhere? I'd like to read about it.

There's not much to write. I tried it for about two weeks, consistently, approximately no cheating: nothing but candles for lighting, no "screens", period (save, like, double-checking the alarm on my phone for the next day right before bed—but no browsing, no messaging, none of that, total use measured in seconds once the sun was down). No TVs or computers whatsoever. By night two I was already getting to sleep much…

Thank you.

I grew up a bit like this. For long periods we turned the electricity off - to save money, not on principle - so in the evenings I read by candlelight. Indeed it's hard. It wasn't so difficult to do because we lived in the country and didn't need to "sync" with other people.

I'm thinking how to replicate some of this in my life now. It's difficult because I also want to write, blog, do research, and other screen-related things. OTOH I feel there's something very wrong about spending 10 hours of your day on-screen.

I wonder if there's room for a community to try to do some of this stuff together.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#466

Post by cwkoss »

Panoramix wrote: post #367
cameronh90 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cook often, you can usually infer the details. The same is true for recipe sites and books, but at a different level of detail. Usually when I use a tiktok cooking video, I'm not really "following" it, but just using it to get a general idea then riffing on it.

That only works for dishes that are related or similar to other dishes you've made in the past. As soon as a banana leaf, raw fish, etc etc enters the picture you'll want to read the long form. Also if you want to actually get better at cooking, tiktoks just won't cut it as there's no time to discuss all the nuances - and quality food is an amalgamation of many small nuances.

A lot of people find it easier to follow technique demonstrated on video than described in text

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#467

Post by cwkoss »

account42 wrote: post #414
cwkoss wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recipe tiktoks are like 30 seconds long - faster to watch the whole thing than scrolling to find the recipe on a bloated blogspam recipe site.

That's ~15 seconds EACH TIME you want to add the next ingredient and forgot the amount compared to scanning a receipe list which for a split second.

just pause on the ingredients, its not that hard

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#468

Post by Aerbil313 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #428
mlyle wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side is that when people get used to consuming content in 30 second blipverts, they become unable to maintain attention through a 10 second break in the action. I don't know for sure about causation, but the students that I see incessantly consume tiktok completely lose state and working context in a very short time. It's a very strong correlation. (And, I disagree a bit with your premise: for those of us wh…

The flip side is that when people get used to consuming content in 30 second blipverts, they become unable to maintain attention through a 10 second break in the action. I see this written so frequently. Is there any studies to back up this claim? Please forgive me: Normally, I abhor the "citation please" type of response, but this claim is misleading to me. It just sounds like grumpy old person complaining about spe…

You can try yourself. Use the most short-form content media: either one of HN, reddit and tiktok for 8 hours per day for one week. I can guarantee you won’t be able to concencrate on anything after the one week.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#469

Post by pwpw »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #373
BirdieNZ wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> society is largely set up to favor neurotypicals at the expense of those with ADHD. As someone with diagnosed ADHD, I think this misrepresents ADHD. There's no form of society in which ADHD is an advantage; in a hunter-gatherer society, my tent would still be untidy and I'd still procrastinate fixing my spear before the hunt until the day before, and I'd still lose focus during the hunt and miss the deer walking pa…

ADHD is so prevalent in the US, far more so than most (all?) other disabilities; I believe one of these must be true: - ADHD is severely over diagnosed - ADHD is a trait that was adaptive in the past, and is only pathologically maladaptive in modern life - ADHD the trait is caused by some aspect of modern life (this seems least likely to me) (saying this as diagnosed, with the usual problems)

Entirely pet theories that may be untrue but worth considering:

- Nicotine helps mitigate the negative symptoms of ADHD, but US society has seen a major drop in tobacco usage

- Having access to a secretary greatly compensates for workplace related tasks that are difficult for those with ADHD. I have had a few conversations with people at my company much older than myself about how the number of secretaries has vastly shrunk. My boss’ secretary used to reach out to me about a meeting she had scheduled for us. Now my boss doesn’t have a secretary, and I have to schedule those meetings, update them, and communicate this with multiple parties while also having a full plate of my own dev work.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#470

Post by asdff »

commandlinefan wrote: post #236
asdff wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on top of that they aren't realizing any of the gain of the modern technology here. They buy a $1000 laptop, with $100 a month internet plan, to go watch a 15 minute youtube video with 4 minutes of discrete ads and 4 minutes of sponsor product mentions cut into the actual video, all to gleam a fraction of the understanding that a single page of whatever someone in their position a few decades ago would have check…

> would have checked from the library Well, local libraries don't really have that much in the way of good academic texts - you have to have access to a university library, or be willing to fork over $60 of your own for a print copy, for that. But I get what you mean.

You aren't getting anything from a youtube video thats in academic texts either. But you can certainly get academic textbooks from library systems. Are they on the shelf at your local library branch? Maybe not. Can you order it from the library system for free and get it sent to that branch in a few days? Sure. I just looked online at what one of the seminal works for a field I don't understand but might be generally useful to homeowners or people seeking to upskill: carpentry. I found the title "Building Construction Illustrated" recommended a few times. My library system has just about every edition of this book published over the decades, in good supply, even in ebook form. This is what I mean with how the library system can easily serve you very high quality information on a variety of topics.
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