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Have attention spans been declining?

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411–420 of 495 posts

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#411
post #360

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What kind of knowledge are all you getting from Tiktok? Technical knowledge? Philosophical? I thought the app was for lip syncing + lazy cheerleading and the occasional Chinese data mining. But I am perfectly happy hopping on the bandwagon if it has substance!

I just use all the various sites as tools, instead of having loyalty anywhere. Search for something you're interested in and see what shows up. YouTube is definitely no longer the central repository of everything that it once was. A good way to demonstrate the average difference between YouTube and TikTok is to show the same video from the same guy, but optimized for different platforms. This is a video on deadlift f…

Great links! Thank you for this comparison. I am a huge fan of spreading content across platforms as to avoid a monolith. I will be looking in to this Tiktok. And I truly cannot stand the "smash the like" whatever every. single. damn. video.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#412
post #369

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Well, we're discussing a post that looks at a bunch of moderate-quality evidence in this area. Unfortunately, no one had the foresight to realize that attention span measures would be very important for us to have high quality control evidence before 2000. So we have some moderate quality measures that say that attention span has become lower over time. And we have higher quality measures that show that low attention…

> In my opinion, our attention mechanism is very weak compared to the demands of academic study and modern knowledge work. Or it could be that academic study and modern knowledge work is just severaly outdated in their data delivery methods compared to contemporary techniques used in tools that "cause attention span issues" like Tiktok. Maybe the UX of a traditional science paper has to be reviewed instead of trying…

> We got new information delivery methods that are significantly better and when going back to old methods we naturally get unsatisfied. Does that mean we are getting "dumber" as "attention deficit" memes imply or that certain fields are just failing to catch up?

the new delivery methods are not significantly better at delivering knowledge, but at diverting attention. They are engineered for that outcome, not for the information retention ability after a significant amount of time, or even for the comprehension of that information. So yes, as a result, the society is getting dumber, because our intellectual resources are rerouted to futile bits of nothingness.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#413

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TL;DR if we keep the direct environment of our child clean and limit distractions she's calm, and focused. If we don't she gets whiny and somewhat unbearable. I'm raising a child right now and it's pretty simple to observe a few simple patterns: 1. if there is stuff in her visible range during any activity that is even mildly interesting she wants it and it distracts from any activity. be it her own scooter, or her o…

I think we are on the right of the bell curve with our kids discipline (healthy eating, little screen time) but the picture you paint sounds miserable. A sparse environment, no TV, simple toys, denying gifts from grandparents isn’t something noble. Of course don’t let them eat cookies before dinner and sit on iPads all day, but there has to be some balance for everyone’s enjoyment and sanity.

> A sparse environment, no TV, simple toys, denying gifts from grandparents isn’t something noble.

Providing an environment conducive to personal growth IS noble. Of course it's not only a matter of removing damaging attention sinks, but also substituting those with more healthy alternatives, like books, activities, education, quality time with family, etc.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#414
post #113
post #71

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Do you have an example of such a skill that has been compressed?

Recipe tiktoks are like 30 seconds long - faster to watch the whole thing than scrolling to find the recipe on a bloated blogspam recipe site.

That's ~15 seconds EACH TIME you want to add the next ingredient and forgot the amount compared to scanning a receipe list which for a split second.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#415

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Thanks for mentioning that book. I am trying to decide if it's worth reading. The negative reviews agree with the main premise of the book but say it's short and superficial. Is there information in there worth reading beyond the usual tips ie keeping your phone in another room, avoid news first thing in the morning, no screen time 2 hours before bed, long cardio workouts, etc?

You should look at Matthew Sweet's responses to that book, it's not pretty: https://twitter.com/DrMatthewSweet/status/147912591249084826... It's also worth noting that Johann Hari has an extensive history as a liar.

Ooof, that’s quite serious.

Would be nice if there was a list of self-help/psychology books that are properly based on proper science.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#416

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I agree with what you are saying. Much like a muscle, when you work out, you're not lifting weights so you can lift more weights later. Your general strength is higher, so most physical tasks are easier. Same for reading, if you practice reading books and enjoy looking at the written word, then reading developer documentation doesn't seem as intimidating which opens more doors for you.

My counterargument would be about why you need to lift weights in the first place ? Some people like lifting weight, sure. But if your goal is to carry injured big dogs in your medical center, you won't be lifting random weights, nor doing generic workout. And you might not even do that in a gym, you could as well train with healthy dogs and get an actual feel of their weight distribution. For books it goes the same.…

> Learning to plow through uninteresting books for the sake of it doesn't sound like a worthwhile use of someone's time.

Of course not, but that's just a very specific edge case of "go read books".

When I recommend for someone to go read a book, I consider it implied that they should find good, interesting and constructive books to read, not the opposite.

I personally think reading is as objectively good for the mind as walking is for the body.

Walking is objectively good and healthy for everybody and anybody, bar physical conditions and edge cases.

However, you could go walk in weird ways in boring or dangerous and unhealthy places and that's not ideal, but who would purposefully do that?

Same goes for reading.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#417
post #135

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I'd like to believe it is reversible. It's not a genetic problem so it is a problem of environment. If you tech detoxed for a whole year living in the woods or something then tried to read Moby Dick it would likely be very tolerable again. You could study some people who have gone to prison and have little opportunity for endless media consumption.

Relatedly, I've found my life-long "sleep problems" go away very fast if I stop using electronics or electric lights after sundown. Go figure, you light up rooms with hundreds of candle-power like it's friggin' daytime, and have world-class entertainment of most any kind available at the press of a button like you're living in a World's Fair crossed with Vegas crossed with a Red Light district crossed with a video ga…

Have you written up your lifestyle anywhere? I'd like to read about it.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#418
post #361

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> I do focus on stuff for extended periods of time like watching a movie, reading a book, working on something, etc. Note that watching a movie requires far less attention than reading a book. Movies, first, are compressed stories (movie scripts are less than a hundred pages) where, second, nothing is left to the imagination. I'd bet that people read much fewer books today than before video streaming became popular,…

> I mostly stopped reading books since I bought a smartphone Before smartphones I read voraciously and then around 2010 I kinda stopped. Not technical books (which I still read when the need arises) but novels. At the start of the pandemic I got a Kindle and since then I've gotten back into the habit of reading fiction. I read at least 1 hour every day.

Yeah an e-book is better than reading on a tablet or smartphone, since the limited OS means there are less distractions. But for me, there mere existence of a smartphone in my pockets triggers my Web addiction.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should definitely read whatever interests them so when they want to acquire useful knowledge (like what to do when the obvious brake cable fix doesn’t work), they have access to tons and tons of written material on that topic. It’s odd how you’re acting like you’re making an argument against the general imperative to read books, but your examples are people being requested to read specific books which may or may…

> like what to do when the obvious brake cable fix doesn’t work The interesting thing: those useful information probably aren't seen as "books" even when they're in written form. The obvious example is the repair manual in PDF on the brake maker's site. Or the blog explaining how they dealt with their vintage bike's brake cable. Of course that information is probably actually a youtube video (I refresh every single c…

You’ve snuck in another conditional: when you’re close to someone, correct, you shouldn’t offer imperatives like “read books.”

You’d ideally be recommending books that are tailored to their needs and interests (which, remember, is not the same as your prior examples, which were specific books pushed on people regardless of their needs and interests).

You’d be hard-pressed to find a single decent educator who disagrees with you, though it’s easy to come to the idea that you’re contrarian on this point.

There are two factors: 1) educators have to suggest a small set of books for a large group of students due to the scale of mass education. AFAICT almost every educator regards this as a problem but it’s not exactly helped by views like “reading books is a dumb goal.” 2) when educators are talking about overall goals and policy, they obviously cannot say “well for person X we want them to read book X; for person Y we want them to read book Y, etc.” This washes out as “we want students writ large to read books writ large.”

The overall objective is to build a baseline ability for every student to be able to find, navigate, and interpret information. A lot of our society’s information is stored in a particular format called “book” that is navigated differently from other formats. Despite the generic-sounding imperative to read books, it is self-evidently the case that the only way to achieve it is by meeting each individual student where they are in terms of both skill level and interests, so that’s what educators try to do. Again: this is extremely challenging in mass education environments!

Other information formats should be and are also part of a good educational system, obviously, including manuals and instructional videos. I have clear memory of manuals and cookbooks even in my early education, which was low quality by US standards.

Agreed re weirdness of # of books as a meaningful metric, and I suspect most educators would agree with us as well.

Re: Have attention spans been declining?

#420
Yes. Our brains have been rewired. We consume information in smaller bits - the brain can no longer focus on long-form content. I used to be able to read a chapter of a book - now I can't. That's NOT an accident, and I didn't somehow acquire ADHD at 40 (and I will argue that most people who are hogging Adderall right now didn't either).
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