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Young people are flocking to astrology

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Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#801

Post by sibeliuss »

wilg wrote: post #796
sibeliuss wrote: post #785

Rationalists will always dismiss anything that has a woo quotient ascribed to it. This is unfortunate because traditional astrology provides a remarkably sophisticated toolset to study this aspect of reality -- _but you have to know how to look at it_. The system deals with archetypal reality. Archetypes have an unboundedness to them that live within a fixed topical frame. Astrology says: at such and such time, such…

This is complete horseshit.

Without fully grasping how archetypes work, it is impossible to begin. It's a prerequisite, and without that one will always miss just how remarkably accurate (in field-like terms) astrological prediction can be.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#802

Post by fatfingerd »

causi wrote: post #450
machina_ex_deus wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me there is an a huge difference. I can accept religions, which are adding axioms that aren't falsifiable, and that are usually taught to a person when he is a child. And religions had their roles in shaping society for good. I can accept conspiracy theories and disbelieving the known consensus. I just can't accept a person who, in the age where we know exactly how planets move and what they are, decided to believ…

At least religions bother making their false predictions untestable. How do you fall for something that proves itself wrong every day?

I think you can find ample evidence of astrology and religious predictions evolving to be more vague after criticism via clear contrary evidence.

The world has forgotten to end a few times now.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#803

Post by whakim »

wilg wrote: post #795
whakim wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that astrology is complete nonsense, you're not likely to win many people over when you treat stereotyping (which you've described here) and racism as equivalent.

He's describing prejudice, and often people mean "racial prejudice" when they talk about "racism" (sometimes they mean "structural racial disadvantage" instead). IMO, this is a fair comparison. Comparing things does not create an equivalence, that's a silly straw man.

But stereotype and prejudice don't mean the same thing, even though they're related. Without getting too far into the weeds, stereotypes are (positive or negative) beliefs about characteristics of groups of people, whereas prejudices are internalized negative feelings towards groups of people, often formed on the basis of (usually negative) stereotypes. "what I must like etc [on the basis of star sign]" (quote from OP) is a generalized belief about a characteristic of a group rather than a negative feeling towards a group - a stereotype, not a prejudice. To be clear, I completely agree with the OP in that stereotypes (even positive ones) are harmful in that they don't treat people as individuals.

Even if you don't accept this difference between stereotypes and prejudice, however, there's still a big jump to get to racism. I won't attempt (nor do I think I could do justice to) a formal definition of racism, but I think most people would agree that it at least also involves (1) discrimination (individual, structural and/or systemic actions that are based on prejudice); (2) racialization (the social construction of racial groups); and (3) history (racism involves a lot of historical baggage that probably isn't applicable to, say, astrology). So sure, stereotypes aren't totally unrelated to racism - but saying they're "akin" to racism really misses the bigger picture.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#804

Post by nurettin »

Told my wife (who is into astrology) that the gravitational force of venus affecting her is less than the gravitational effect of a fly on her arm.

She was unfazed. She knows all about confirmation bias, and evolutionary psychology. I really don't know what to say.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#805

Post by vacuity »

throw0101a wrote: post #690
vacuity wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if this does point to some higher being or reality, it isn't necessarily any conception of God. Also, true randomness in fluctuations in quantum fields could refute 2, no? Also, trying to extend the notion of time to some point at infinity in the past, as if this is a proof by induction, is absurd. Mathematics are free for us to make statements about because we can start with whichever axioms we like. However, o…

For quantum-ness, see perhaps "Causality and radioactive decay": * https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2014/12/causality-and-radio... The book Aristotle's Revenge has "§5.2 Aristotle and quantum mechanics" as well per the table of contents (been a few years since I read it): * https://www.editiones-scholasticae.de/artikel/aristotles-rev... * https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/43277412

While that's an impressive article, it seems to only prove, if it indeed proves anything, that science can't disprove the existence of God. It must be said that nothing can prove or disprove the existence of God, so the fact that the article doesn't seem to try either way is adequate. There are various things in the Bible that could theoretically be proved or disproved, but God is necessarily beyond our capabilities to truly know. Only in maths are there proofs. We're glorified frogs in wells.

Whether or not God exists, religious people see fit to mesh their moral axioms with their understanding of God's teachings. Atheists suppose no such being to base their moral axioms on. To each their own, but those who find others intolerable will be hostile. We are humans living in a world we have created for ourselves.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#806

Post by empyrrhicist »

baremetal wrote: post #699
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with a lot of historical predictions is that they were too vague to be useful i.e. could someone armed with a bible have known enough about an invasion of Tyre to make a bet with someone before it happened? e.g. I bet they get invaded in the next two weeks. Predictions of that nature are usually just re-interpretations based on knowledge after the fact.

Israel was recreated in one day. As prophesied. "Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." Isaiah 66:8 On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Tr…

And yet,

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled....

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#807

Post by wilg »

sibeliuss wrote: post #801
wilg wrote: post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is complete horseshit.

Without fully grasping how archetypes work, it is impossible to begin. It's a prerequisite, and without that one will always miss just how remarkably accurate (in field-like terms) astrological prediction can be.

I hope you find your way out of this mess.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#808

Post by RichardCA »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303
nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

Astrology is important to the extent that it represents the history of Astronomy. If someone can correctly explain the difference between the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiac, that requires a certain level of knowledge and skill. I've been to planetarium shows where the presenter goes out of their way to debunk Astrology and it's usually the argument that the constellations don't line up with the Zodiac. But that lecturer must not understand the Ptolemaic Model and it's role in history, or knows it but fails to explain it because they are patronizing and condescending to their audience.

The thing that really annoys me are TV shows like "Indian Matchmaker" where they bring in a so-called Astrologer who can't even explain whether he uses the Western or the Vedic system. That's just insulting.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#809

Post by WorldMaker »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #713
baremetal wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel was recreated in one day. As prophesied. "Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." Isaiah 66:8 On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Tr…

A prophecy is different to a concrete prediction. People in the 1930s weren't able to use the bible to predict that Israel would be created in a day in the next 20 years. There's also the doubt over how long a "day" is in the bible, so it seems more a case of it only being a prediction in hindsight. There's a better critique here: https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/does-the-state-of-...

This prophecy also has a self-fulfilling prophecy nature to it, because plenty of groups in America (alone) had good and (maybe mostly) terrible reasons to follow the prophecy "like a blueprint".

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#810

Post by robertlutece »

candiddevmike wrote: post #602
harimau777 wrote: post #575

I have a pet theory that things like astrology, tarot, the I Ching, Myers Briggs, etc. are valuable (and therefore stick around) not because they have a supernatural or scientific ability to make correct predictions, but because they provide a useful framework for discussing topics. So for example, even if tarot doesn't give you supernatural insight, the discussion it generates with the card reader may allow you to r…

I do solo tarot card readings all the time as it forces you to think about situations in a different way via the card imagery. I find it helps with decision making. Nothing mythical about it, just a weird form of brain hacking.

i pull a card every day and see what connections i can make to my life. or oddly they sometimes serve as kind of reminders: "there's a lack of creative energy" which perhaps reminds me that i've not been playing the guitar in a while. to me they're more like brian eno's oblique strategies [1], than something mystical.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies

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