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Young people are flocking to astrology

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Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#791

Post by wilg »

VoodooJuJu wrote: post #440
nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

Dude, lighten up. She was playing a game with you, probably flirting. And you didn't play the game very well. Mysticism is fun, aesthetic, and filled with more questions than answers. Play the game some time, you might enjoy it. I also can't believe you actually found a way to weasel racism into the conversation. It's all so tiresome.

This shit is exactly why astrology is so frustrating. You can't pin down whether somebody actually believes what they're saying – when challenged it's all in good fun, but the things people actually say and appear to believe are completely absurd. "More questions than answers" my ass – there are NO answers here. It's a "game" when convenient, I guess. This wishy-washy trolling attitude reminds me of all the alt-right 4chan weirdos who are just "joking" about all their awful beliefs.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#792

Post by TSiege »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #769

I can't help but feel astonished how salient the classic Carl Sagan quote is here: "I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can…

I deeply dislike the argument that logic and reason should be the only part of how a person relates to the world. That we should all be logical and be free of spiritual beliefs. I don't think being an astrologist and an astronomer are antithetical.

I don't know many people who are into astrology as means of predicting the future, but rather as a means of describing types of people and how they might interact and their place in the world. It gives them a shared vocabulary of ideas and concepts that help them make sense of our human world. Astrology is asking very different questions than an equation about astral bodies could answer. Science and reason is indisputably important for understanding the natural world and making decisions from them, but it won't tell my friends why their relationship may be not working

I don't believe in astrology, and I'm not much of an astrologist. But just let people have their beliefs and do what they enjoy without implying they're irrational reactionaries who can't see the "truth." If anything it's narratives that hold people back, not facts

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#793

Post by Fnoord »

shagie wrote: post #731
Fnoord wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not merely your pet theory, theologians come down to the same conclusion with regards to the use of religion in old and modern society versus the lack of religion in our modern society. There is a good reason religion is banned in communist countries; people are supposed to believe in communism . I've grown up with the Christian moral framework, and I'm happy with it even though I'm atheist (OK, technically ag…

> Astrology goes a step too far though. Astrology takes that step with making it predictive rather than introspective. In on April 3rd, 2024 there will be a conjunction of Venus and Neptune, followed by two days later Mars and the moon, then the moon will occult Venus followed by a total solar eclipse on the 8th and a conjunction of Saturn and Mars on the 10th... Because of these events... And with that, people will…

Well said, that is what I meant. Although Tarot can also be used for predictive behavior analysis. The same is true for MBTI and DICE. But with the latter two there is some merit while with the former there is none. Tarot is best described as a game. If you regard it as such, or perhaps inspirational game, it is OK. Whereas if it is abused for e.g. cold reading that is a bad thing.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#794

Post by rayiner »

varjag wrote: post #345
machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

There is no qualitative difference between belief in astrology and any of the world's religions. Not saying you're not entitled in disregarding astrology believers but the cut-off point is completely arbitrary and dare I say irrational.

Most secular researchers agree that Jesus, Mohammad, the Buddha, etc., were real historical figures, so that’s a qualitative difference. Moreover, there are entire civilizations built on those belief systems—including the one you live in. Comparing those civilizations is an empirical basis for comparing the underlying belief systems.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#795

Post by wilg »

whakim wrote: post #87
nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

While I agree that astrology is complete nonsense, you're not likely to win many people over when you treat stereotyping (which you've described here) and racism as equivalent.

He's describing prejudice, and often people mean "racial prejudice" when they talk about "racism" (sometimes they mean "structural racial disadvantage" instead).

IMO, this is a fair comparison. Comparing things does not create an equivalence, that's a silly straw man.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#796

Post by wilg »

sibeliuss wrote: post #785

Rationalists will always dismiss anything that has a woo quotient ascribed to it. This is unfortunate because traditional astrology provides a remarkably sophisticated toolset to study this aspect of reality -- _but you have to know how to look at it_. The system deals with archetypal reality. Archetypes have an unboundedness to them that live within a fixed topical frame. Astrology says: at such and such time, such…

This is complete horseshit.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#797

Post by flanked-evergl »

nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

> I told her her beliefs were akin to racism.

Did she say that people were of lesser moral worth, or did not deserve equal treatment under the law, or equal opportunity, or rights, based on their star sign? Did she suggest one should morally judge people based on their star signs and not on the content of their character?

Nothing in your post suggests so, nor have I ever met someone who believes in astrology that does.

If you think that holding the belief that the positions of stars impact our personalities is akin to racism, then I'm not certain why you actually think racism is wrong. If tomorrow we find out that we were wrong about the influence of hormones on our brains and mood that will not make the current medical consensus akin to racism, it would just make it wrong. If, however, someone believed someone should be morally judged because of hormones, that would make it akin to racism.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#798

Post by breuleux »

29athrowaway wrote: post #641
breuleux wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or nearly every small outlet, YouTuber, podcast and independent blog. They, too, are trying to be profitable, after all.

Except that YouTubers don't get direct payments from large advertisers and donors.

Past a certain reach, of course they do. Besides, sensationalism is how you get eyeballs, all outlets are subject to this pressure and it has nothing to do with funding.

There is generally no reason to trust small outlets more than large outlets. If anything, their more intimate nature lulls people into a false sense of security.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#799

Post by wilg »

Clearly, from the asinine discussions in these comments, we can tell that a lot of people are into astrology now. This is getting really bad.

That said, arguing against it probably won't work, there's a whole framework of weasely excuses and rhetorical chaff people can deploy. It's much harder to argue against a religious belief that people can just pretend they don't really believe in when challenged.

My hope is that someone can come up with a pop-culturey alternative that provides the fuzzy feelings of astrology without rotting people's reasoning ability about the natural world.

Re: Young people are flocking to astrology

#800

Post by SeriousStorm »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #303
nprateem wrote: post #66

I had an argument with a girl the other day who was adamant she wanted to know my star sign. I said "you tell me" and after 10 guesses I finally told her. She then went on to tell me what I must like etc - most of which was complete bollocks obviously. I told her her beliefs were akin to racism. Just because of when I was born she thought it was acceptable not to bother to treat me as an individual but as automatical…

Speaking of stereotypes, if anyone takes astrology seriously, I automatically assume they are not intelligent, irrational, and I find it impossible to take them seriously. I consider them beyond reason so I don't even try. If a person's logic and epistemology lead to him believing in astrology, it shows a deeper problem and I don't hope to have an intelligent discussion with them any more than I expect to have an int…

I was born into a cult adjacent / high-demand religion and then left in my mid-thirties. There are a lot of people who are extremely intelligent but have a corner of their world-view (religious beliefs, etc) that completely contradict the other rational areas of their beliefs.

I think it's much more helpful to consider their beliefs in this area irrational or illogical rather than assume that this lack of logic applies universally to all of their knowledge.

Every single human that has ever lived has, at one point in time or another, held beliefs that are illogical and irrational. And nearly all of us still do hold such beliefs.

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