All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free • Hacker News Board

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#131

Post by acer589 » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:00 PM UTC

ecf wrote: post #22

remote_phone wrote: post #7

I hate Newsom but I think this is a good idea. Education and support should be 100% free for those in the more difficult economic situations.

I don’t agree. My parents are low middle class. We didn’t qualify for any financial aid and they were tasked with trying to find a way to send both my sister and I to college which they couldn’t afford. So what did we do? Take out a bunch of loans. Good thing I got a decent job that can pay for them. Too bad for my sister who had a masters and is making $35k as a teacher in Tennessee which is barely more than minimum…

And those loans should be forgiven. Is this your position on anything becoming easier over time? "We shouldn't have ramps, my grandpa had to push grandma's wheelchair up the steps"?

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#132

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:00 PM UTC

slashdev wrote: post #123

pessimizer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action shouldn't ever have been a contest with prizes for the most unfortunate. It was sold as a way to fix the wrongs of slavery. Having been enslaved legally in the US is not a race, it's an atrocity. The reason we should be paying for foster kids' college is because the state is their parent, so it's our responsibility. In a country that wasn't shit, regular people would be jealous of how kids who were…

Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense? Please cut me some slack here, by the nature of the world we live in, I have not uttered these thoughts to another human being, and they might have obvious flaws. It's tough when you can't talk about ideas out of fear of the consequences. I think nobody argues that it's a vile, morally repugnant thing to enslave another human being. But that was a long time ago, and…

> Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense?

Yes. The slaves did labor. That labor demands wages. The fact that the formerly enslaved also benefited from public goods to which all citizens had access does not pay down the debt owned to them for their labor.

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#133

Post by weaksauce » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:02 PM UTC

torstenvl wrote: post #24

megaman821 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All school lunches and breakfasts should be free. It is abhorrent that any child in a country as rich as the United States should go hungry at school.

As a taxpayer who funds public schools, I find it acceptable to subsidize the food of those who are struggling, but I do not have any desire to subsidize the ruling elite (who, in many cases, intentionally keep working class pay low). They can pay for their own children's food.

> but I do not have any desire to subsidize the ruling elite (who, in many cases, intentionally keep working class pay low). They can pay for their own children's food.

I would hope they get taxed more under this regime so it's not really you subsidizing it for them.

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#134

Post by themitigating » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:03 PM UTC

slashdev wrote: post #123

pessimizer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action shouldn't ever have been a contest with prizes for the most unfortunate. It was sold as a way to fix the wrongs of slavery. Having been enslaved legally in the US is not a race, it's an atrocity. The reason we should be paying for foster kids' college is because the state is their parent, so it's our responsibility. In a country that wasn't shit, regular people would be jealous of how kids who were…

Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense? Please cut me some slack here, by the nature of the world we live in, I have not uttered these thoughts to another human being, and they might have obvious flaws. It's tough when you can't talk about ideas out of fear of the consequences. I think nobody argues that it's a vile, morally repugnant thing to enslave another human being. But that was a long time ago, and…

The descendants of those slaves are now much wealthier and better off by pretty much any metric than their relatives who were not enslaved

Do you mean each successive generation of blacks were wealthier than the previous? What about a comparison to the average white person?

There were many laws that existed well after slavery that could prevent a black person from succeeding.

That's my justification for affirmative action (not reparations). Should it last forever? No but it hasn't been that many generations since the civil rights act

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#135

Post by jmerz » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:04 PM UTC

slashdev wrote: post #123

pessimizer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action shouldn't ever have been a contest with prizes for the most unfortunate. It was sold as a way to fix the wrongs of slavery. Having been enslaved legally in the US is not a race, it's an atrocity. The reason we should be paying for foster kids' college is because the state is their parent, so it's our responsibility. In a country that wasn't shit, regular people would be jealous of how kids who were…

Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense? Please cut me some slack here, by the nature of the world we live in, I have not uttered these thoughts to another human being, and they might have obvious flaws. It's tough when you can't talk about ideas out of fear of the consequences. I think nobody argues that it's a vile, morally repugnant thing to enslave another human being. But that was a long time ago, and…

So there's actually a lot of academic debate on the merits of reparations, and exactly what and how much reparations should be.

A very oversimplified pro argument: if it wasn't for slavery, these families would have generational wealth and better social situations. African Americans in the US ARE disproportionately lower wealth/income and this has CLEAR historical origins.

The oversimplified con argument: Okay, but if you come from a wealthy African American family, why should you have a leg up over a poor (or otherwise more disadvantaged) white student? What about an immigrant, who didn't benefit from slavery at all?

Fundamentally there's a huge swath of different injustices across society, and we obviously can't fix all of them at once, so a big challenge in this sort of debate is how you slice the injustices and how you prioritize fixing them.

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#136

Post by inconceivable » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:04 PM UTC

slashdev wrote: post #123

pessimizer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affirmative action shouldn't ever have been a contest with prizes for the most unfortunate. It was sold as a way to fix the wrongs of slavery. Having been enslaved legally in the US is not a race, it's an atrocity. The reason we should be paying for foster kids' college is because the state is their parent, so it's our responsibility. In a country that wasn't shit, regular people would be jealous of how kids who were…

Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense? Please cut me some slack here, by the nature of the world we live in, I have not uttered these thoughts to another human being, and they might have obvious flaws. It's tough when you can't talk about ideas out of fear of the consequences. I think nobody argues that it's a vile, morally repugnant thing to enslave another human being. But that was a long time ago, and…

nobody gives a shit about the logical arguments. it's social maneuvering for power and money. in other words, it's politics. the sooner you understand that people are looking out for their own monetary interests the less confused you will be about the whole thing.

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#137

Post by themitigating » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:05 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #120

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Equality is very different than equity How old are these definitions? I've only seen them used this way in public policy circles, and left-leaning ones at that. It's also totally discontinuous with the treatment of equality in classical literature. Put another way, isn't equity just a masking term for top-to-bottom wealth transfers?

I think "Equity" was launched to the general public 2-3 years ago.

In 1968, H. George Frederickson articulated "a theory of social equity" and put it forward as the 'third pillar' of public administration.[4] Frederickson was concerned that those in public administration were making the mistake of assuming that citizen A is the same as citizen B; ignoring social and economic conditions.

Using the term launched, similar to how tech companies launch products, implies a conspiracy to bring this word to the public's attention

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#138

Post by qwytw » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:06 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #132

slashdev wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense? Please cut me some slack here, by the nature of the world we live in, I have not uttered these thoughts to another human being, and they might have obvious flaws. It's tough when you can't talk about ideas out of fear of the consequences. I think nobody argues that it's a vile, morally repugnant thing to enslave another human being. But that was a long time ago, and…

> Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense? Yes. The slaves did labor. That labor demands wages. The fact that the formerly enslaved also benefited from public goods to which all citizens had access does not pay down the debt owned to them for their labor.

I guess a better question is whether reparation paid out to 5th+ generation descendants of slaves make sense. How do you even implement that practically?

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#139

Post by slashdev » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:08 PM UTC

themitigating wrote: post #134

slashdev wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do reparations for slavery even make logical sense? Please cut me some slack here, by the nature of the world we live in, I have not uttered these thoughts to another human being, and they might have obvious flaws. It's tough when you can't talk about ideas out of fear of the consequences. I think nobody argues that it's a vile, morally repugnant thing to enslave another human being. But that was a long time ago, and…

The descendants of those slaves are now much wealthier and better off by pretty much any metric than their relatives who were not enslaved Do you mean each successive generation of blacks were wealthier than the previous? What about a comparison to the average white person? There were many laws that existed well after slavery that could prevent a black person from succeeding. That's my justification for affirmative a…

> Do you mean each successive generation of blacks were wealthier than the previous? What about a comparison to the average white person?

No I mean the average African-American is easily over 10x wealthier, and has far better opportunities than the average citizen of the countries that now inhabit the lands they originally came from. Were it not for slavery, again as abhorrent as it was, they'd be a lot worse off today.

> here were many laws that existed well after slavery that could prevent a black person from succeeding.

Yes, that's a fact.

Re: All foster kids in California can now attend any state college for free

#140

Post by soared » Sun, Jul 23, 2023, 11:08 PM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #81

Now in a better world we'd drop a word from this sentence and make it free for all state residents. That's closer to what it used to be. Realistically this doesn't change much since it's extremely unlikely a foster kid wouldn't qualify for a full ride prior to this. The only people who really get screwed are middle class families who make too much to qualify for aid, but can't really afford to pay for school.

Middle class families can pay for school: In 2019-20 in state tuition and fees in California averaged $9k. 100% of which you can take a federal loan and payback Rent/living cost is another matter, but tuition can be still be reasonable if you state in state and don’t attend expense universities.

But I totally agree - there is a lower/lower middle class of people that attending college is vet challenging and free tuition for all at some schools would be massively beneficial for them and society.