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Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#771

Post by kergonath »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #668
kergonath wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end the choice is simple: follow local laws or drop features or devices. The calculation is going to be different in each country, but there is no hypocrisy here. The Chinese government messing with Chinese servers affect the Chinese market, which makes a lot of money so there is a strong incentive to remain in it. The UK backdooring FaceTime compromises it for the rest of the world and would actually put Appl…

Companies are made up of people, who absolutely have stances.

I did not say otherwise.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#772

Post by f6v »

Spivak wrote: post #339
f6v wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having rights is a social construct. Unless you believe in divine order of things. But I suspect there’s nothing in physical reality that requires any rights to be granted to anyone.

The religious far outnumber the not so I think your "unless" is really the norm. Talking only the various Jesus fanclubs you have a literal divine right to privacy in confession and it's sinful to reveal another's secrets. The Adam and Eve creation myth establishes privacy when God created clothes. The very concept natural rights is basically divine rights but without explicitly mentioning a god.

It seems that more religious societies have much less privacy. Like, go back to Middle Ages. It would blow out minds how those people lived.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#773

Post by etempleton »

urbandw311er wrote: post #675
acuozzo wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UK keeps trying to throw their weight around only to find out they aren’t that big. Their (former) empire is a part of their cultural identity. It's going to take a few more generations to shed the expectations of what was. The days of two washed-up subjects of the crown taking Kafiristan all on their lonesome are dead and gone.

While I’m glad the rather embarrassing empire thing is on the wane I really don’t see how that is relevant here. The UK isn’t trying to tell anybody what they can do in any other country. It’s just laying down the law for what happens within its own borders which it’s entirely within its rights to do. Equally why you would think an American company could or should tell the British government what to do is surely itse…

It is not that the UK can’t set the rules for their own country; it is just that they need Microsoft and Apple more than Microsoft and Apple need them and so the government has little leverage here.

Further, they aren’t large enough to block the deal so they will only make things worse for their own citizens as it will just deny citizen access to certain products and services or create or otherwise cause companies pull out of the market causing businesses and citizens to look for sun par alternatives.

Apple and Microsoft can’t tell the UK government what to to, but the power dynamic is still what it is and the reality of what blocking the deal will actually accomplish is still the reality.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#774

Post by brasic »

j45 wrote: post #766
brasic wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? WhatsApp rolled out E2E encryption between 2014 and 2016. It’s by far the largest messaging service that is e2e encrypted by default. I think it’s more than fair to call it ahead of the curve for a service of its size. https://www.wired.com/2014/11/whatsapp-encrypted-messaging/ https://blog.whatsapp.com/end-to-end-encryption

It's a very easy search and might surprise ya. As recent as 2021, there's been questions: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/whatsapp-end-to-end-... But, let's go to the start - WhatsApp started in 2011. Encryption arrived in varying degrees until there was some pressures to change the amount of privacy messages had for advertising purposes. Lots in the news at the time. 2018 "Another point of disagreement was o…

Thanks for the links! I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that “E2E” doesn’t mean much for a meta service.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#775

Post by j45 »

brasic wrote: post #774
j45 wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very easy search and might surprise ya. As recent as 2021, there's been questions: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/whatsapp-end-to-end-... But, let's go to the start - WhatsApp started in 2011. Encryption arrived in varying degrees until there was some pressures to change the amount of privacy messages had for advertising purposes. Lots in the news at the time. 2018 "Another point of disagreement was o…

Thanks for the links! I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that “E2E” doesn’t mean much for a meta service.

Haha, I was considering putting a trigger warning at the start of my post.

Encrypted in transit is not at rest, let alone the backups of messages on Google Drive / iCloud.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#776

Post by yung_steezy »

downWidOutaFite wrote: post #335
sanitycheck wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have recently seen what happens when somebody even slightly left of centre gets anywhere near power in the UK. Our major parties are now squashed into the spectrum between the mean US Democrat and the mean US Republican, it's quite depressing.

Are you referring to Jeremy Corbyn? He was brought down by a dishonest campaign by the Jewish lobby.

I think you might have inadvertently revealed why he was so toxic to the electorate here

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#777

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

hiatus wrote: post #506
vbo wrote: post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

It's crazy that we allow this at all. The government can't observe clandestine conversations that occur in person, does that mean they can mandate us to carry a government recording device? That people don't equally balk at requests to encumber encryption is baffling.

> a government recording device

Many people believe this is happening with your phone. It's a recording device after all, and usually carried by most people. If not you then someone nearby likely has one. All these conversations can be transcripted automatically and the vast amounts of text can be analyzed by AI for whatever purpose they want. The infrastructure is already available.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#778

Post by SergeAx »

Is there a tech analysis of what exactly UK is trying to pull? "Ban encryption" sounds pretty vague. If me and my friend negotiate a cipher and writing each other encoded Post-notes - are we going to jail? Or should we provide a copy of cipher to nearest policeman?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#779

Post by YetAnotherNick »

zarzavat wrote: post #292
paxys wrote: post #207

The same Apple that lets the CCP operate its entire App Store in China? It's easy to criticize a government when you know there will be no retaliation. To judge a company's true stance on such issues see how they behave when there's a prospect of real financial loss.

The UK and China are not comparable. China is the worlds most populous country (for now). The UK has a population of under 70m. China is a totalitarian regime where even an imperfect freedom is preferable to no freedom at all. The UK is a democratic country which should be upholding the right to privacy. If Apple weakens crypto for the UK, it affects people in other countries as well. iMessage is not exactly popular…

What are you trying to say with the message? Are you saying if UK government turns bad tomorrow, it is fine for Apple to remove encryption there? But now it is not fine as UK is not bad?

Why does Apple even care about how bad the government is? Either they care about user privacy over money, or they value money over privacy. It is fine if they value any of those as I frankly believe it's not Apple's job to moral police governments.

> If Apple complies with the law, they are violating the privacy of users in the US as well.

As is the case now with US-China communication?

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