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Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

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Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#151
post #10

Big question: HOW? Most journalists in the USA receive basically zero scientific education. At university I majored in two STEM subjects but also took 10 courses in Philosophy, Art, History, Journalism, and Economics. Almost no one majoring in any of those fields except Econ took more than 2-3 STEM courses, and even then there a dedicated watered down courses to ensure those people could graduate (Algebra instead of…

A news outlet can hire scientists to call out shady scientific paper, many scientific paper have obvious bad conclusions, or not following basic scientific rules, that can be detected even if the scientist reviewing is specialized in another fields.

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#152
post #10

Big question: HOW? Most journalists in the USA receive basically zero scientific education. At university I majored in two STEM subjects but also took 10 courses in Philosophy, Art, History, Journalism, and Economics. Almost no one majoring in any of those fields except Econ took more than 2-3 STEM courses, and even then there a dedicated watered down courses to ensure those people could graduate (Algebra instead of…

So wait, I could make a career in being a software engineering style type of journalist? I just don’t think they would care, would they? If anyone is reading it working as such, feel free to humor me by shooting me an email (in my profile). I studied psychology (bachelor), business (bachelor), computer science (master) and game-design (master). I also did some course work related to journalism (though very limited, I…

Yep that’s all great but the key to being good at journalism is being a good journalist. Take Matt Levine. His background as an M&A attorney and investment banker clearly informs his journalism and makes it better. But no one would give a shit about that if he wasn’t a good writer consistently writing good, interesting writing.

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#153

Cynical reaction: With how over-worked and under-resourced most journalists are these days, we're lucky when they have sources who might maybe actually know something or other about the subject at hand. Bigger picture: In the specific case of COVID, what might have helped most would be some really mature meta-journalism. A calm Walter Cronkite telling us that, for the most part, nobody was really sure of anything. Lo…

COVID was one place where their lack of skepticism really came through. Early reports of how COVID spread would have been deemed unrealistic quickly based on a basic understanding of statistics. The early reports of how long the virus lived and how easily transmittable it was should have meant the virus would have spread to a high percentage of the population immediately. Pfizer saying the vaccine prevented transmission even though it is a leaky vaccine should have raised skepticism to incredible heights. Instead, media used these reports to create panic, fear and division. I highly doubt it takes too much work to regurgitate other news outlets, Pfizer, and government organization talking points.

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#154
post #8

The biggest error a considered, good-faith journalist typically makes is "Presenting both sides" without comment when one of them is an established consensus with abundant supporting evidence. If you go looking for a fringe outside perspective on an issue, or the motivated reasoning of somebody who stands to gain by a bit of sophistry, you will probably eventually be able to find one presented by a PhD. That is not h…

You forgot to mention the lefts position. They usually used the lab-leak theory to ridicule, mock and even have careers ended for those who dared to propose it as plausible. As so many of our media outlets lean to the left, the mocking and ridiculing was clearly ubiquitous. And when it started to look like lab leak theory had some merit, media just went silent on the matter. SO I disagree hard with that it's a right…

That Jon Stewart take on it is pretty funny https://youtu.be/sSfejgwbDQ8?t=211, the Hershey factory, gets me pretty good.

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#155

Journalists these days are generally not hired for their incredulity. They're hired based on a track record of not deviating from their employer's political and financial priorities, regardless of the evidence. These are businesses, not public services. They owe their existence to dishonest and manipulative presentations of the qualities of third-party products that they sandwich between their own content. Lets go ba…

The Republicans absolutely have their own media organizations, just as likely to get the facts wrong in a way that's biased towards Republican interests. It's just that the expectations are so low for them no one is surprised when they report things with an obvious slant or just factually wrong.

> The Republicans absolutely have their own media organizations

Everybody has their own media organizations.

> just as likely to get the facts wrong in a way that's biased towards Republican interests.

This is both the law of averages, and also not relevant even if you had a good reason for saying it. I'm not saying the Republicans are any more honest than the Democrats (god forbid.) The Democrats are generally pushing for the same policies as the Republicans, except in matters that split their bases; we're still living in Reagan's world. Democrats are dominant now because they control nonprofits that are funded by the government and because they are supported by more billionaires. No other reason.

20 years from now it could be the Republicans in that position. It isn't like they don't have the ability; their takeover of state governments and redistricting is basically the same sort of tactic.

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#156
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to shoot for perfection. The bar has sunk so low even very basic techniques can yield huge improvements in trust: 1. Report the fact that disagreement exists. Phrased differently, stop taking academics at their word when they claim there's a consensus. Do some basic web searches to find people who disagree. Get quotes from them. Stress on the word people ; not just other academics but literally anyone…

Great comment. One thing I'll add: if you don't have specific training in the field in question, just ignore any use of "scientific consensus" to justify an argument. The "scientific consensus" trope is just dressed-up appeal to authority, and even if there is such a "consensus", it's almost never broad enough to be applicable to whatever pop-science journalism thing you're reading. Also, even within the hallowed hal…

> Science only works if contrarians get a voice.

This is more of the rather tired "contrarians are always right" meme that seems to crop up constantly on HN.

Sometimes a contrarian is right and the accepted consensus is wrong. But that doesn't happen only because the contrarian position is contrarian, it's because the contrarians brought receipts. They applied proper scientific rigor and came up with a falsifiable theory that fits empirical observations and is sufficiently predictive. They also set out to disprove their hypothesis.

Not all contrarians need a "voice". It's not worth anyone's time to rebut yet another unfounded and stupid perpetual motion theorem or electric universe bullshit. It's far easier to spam stupid contrarian ideas than to produce real rigorous scientific output.

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#157

Everyone should be skeptical of all sources. But out of the myriad of various opinions coming from politicians, CEOs, propagandists, flat out out idiots, and everything else in between, scientists are arguably the class of truth sayers you should be least skeptical of. So while the title is technically true and I agree with the premise of the article, the article itself is wholly unnecessary at best and damaging at w…

> But out of the myriad of various opinions coming from politicians, CEOs, propagandists, flat out out idiots, and everything else in between, scientists are arguably the class of truth sayers you should be least skeptical of.

If the CEO of a gambling company said, "Gambling is good." Do you think that would be more or less effective propaganda that if the CEO paid someone else, let's say someone in a white lab coat, to say the same? I think that scientists are more likely to abuse the trust because it's implicit. You can't expect to abuse someone's trust in you (e.g. as a scientist) if you don't expect people to trust you. All the people you listed as untrustworthy are obviously untrustworthy, which is what makes them not a serious risk. Saying "I really want to trust scientists" is the same as saying "If you want to exploit me, use a scientist to do it." I don't think you need to look any further than the Tobacco industry to see why blindly trusting scientists is not a viable mitigation to propaganda.

I don't really have a good answer for how to make a good decision when you're ignorant (trusting scientists would make this easier), and we're all ignorant about most things. Being skeptical doesn't give you good knowledge, it just mitigates absorbing bad knowledge. So you're kinda stuck if you need to e.g. make a risk based decision about COVID and you don't trust scientists.

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#158

I spent at least an hour reading through both the emails and the slack messages in this "expose", but I came away from it fairly certain that they are being portrayed unfairly, and I'm fairly surprised that Nate Silver has latched on to this. You have to both look at the time-line of the paper writing and the time-line of the conversations. By my reading, by the time the paper was being written, most of them had inde…

Nate Silver has been blatantly wrong several times during COVID, has been schooled by actual scientists and is now on a personal vendetta against them.

He is ready to fan the flames of science-bashing because his fragile yet enormuous ego has been hurt. That tells all that you need to know about him. (Don't believe me? He has never apologised nor shown a little bit of humility after being corrected. That's who he is.)

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#159
post #10

Big question: HOW? Most journalists in the USA receive basically zero scientific education. At university I majored in two STEM subjects but also took 10 courses in Philosophy, Art, History, Journalism, and Economics. Almost no one majoring in any of those fields except Econ took more than 2-3 STEM courses, and even then there a dedicated watered down courses to ensure those people could graduate (Algebra instead of…

Ezra Klein interviewed Zeynep Tufeckci about basically this because she's had an unusually good track record for a non-specialist on lots of topics, and it really comes down to being statistically literate and putting in the work: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/04/podcasts/ezra-klein-podca...

Re: Journalists should be skeptical of all sources including scientists

#160
While he's certainly careful to hedge (much like the scientists he's critizcizing), Mr. Silver's argument boils down to, "I think four scientists published a technically correct but politicially motivated paper, so from now on journalists should consider peer-reviewed publications by reputable PhD's as the equivalent of Johnnie RedHat posting on Twitter".
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