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Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#711
post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'll die in this generation itself. The UK with Brexit are starting to find out very quickly how insignificant their nation is and how easy it is to route around the oversized egos of their so-called leaders.

British citizen here. I didn’t vote for Brexit. But would you mind perhaps not insulting my country?

I can't tell if this is satire. There isn't anything insulting about saying a country is insignificant (my home country definitely is).

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll play Devil's Advocate (because I enjoy throwing myself into the fray — especially when arguing against a point I actually agree with). No one is mass-sharing their safe of child-porn worldwide with thousands of other child-porn voyeurs. The internet and its ubiquitous accessibility combined with digital image file formats has changed the landscape for those that would fight these heinous crimes. It is indeed a n…

The most amazing psy op I’ve ever seen is this convincing the public that it’s people who use encryption who are the perverts, and not the people who literally want to creep on other people’s private photos of their kids / spouses / romantic partners. This is exactly the opposite of how it works in the real world.

Do you change with the curtains open?

Or, better, do you shit with the door open?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#713
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy that we allow this at all. The government can't observe clandestine conversations that occur in person, does that mean they can mandate us to carry a government recording device? That people don't equally balk at requests to encumber encryption is baffling.

I like this vein of argument: assume that it is good that the government be able to snoop on your text messages. Why not in-person conversations as well? OK, let's make it so everything you say gets recorded. Eesh.

let's only let those people that absolutely must leave their homes, everyone else should stay inside under government microphone and camera. Imagine how much safe society would be! The government could save so many people like that and keep crime down!

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this vein of argument: assume that it is good that the government be able to snoop on your text messages. Why not in-person conversations as well? OK, let's make it so everything you say gets recorded. Eesh.

Yeah... the crux is should electronic conversations be afforded the same rights, and by extension are they assumed rights for all communication? Where to draw the line? It's definitely murky.

it isn't murky, it's obvious that it should require a warrant for the government to tap into any conversation that people have a reasonable desire to keep private. The police should be there to serve us and not the other way around.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#715
post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

>I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. A big part of the issue is that the nature of the conversations has changed. Mail and Telephones were never at any point perfectly private. The idea of having complete privacy in such conversations is actually rather new. The difference is that those communication mediums now represent nearly all communication, rather than a small fr…

That's not true, people have stepped aside for 10s of thousands of years to have private conversations they didn't want other people to hear. why does the medium matter, whether is pressure waves from mouth to ears or electron/light communications. Why does anyone have a right to listen in?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#716
post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

>I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. A big part of the issue is that the nature of the conversations has changed. Mail and Telephones were never at any point perfectly private. The idea of having complete privacy in such conversations is actually rather new. The difference is that those communication mediums now represent nearly all communication, rather than a small fr…

> Mail and Telephones were never at any point perfectly private

In principle they were not private but in practice they were because in most places the police had to realize that there was a conversation of interest, get a warrant, and use scarce resources.

Now the authorities are able to use machines to monitor traffic patterns for almost all communication the cost of interception is much lower.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have switched from iOS to Android and vice versa multiple times while still driving the same car. Did your app purchases form the Google Play Store automatically transfer to your Apple App store, and did your photos off your Google drive transfer to your iCloud, or vice-versa? Read my comment again, I ware referring to the ecosystems not being interchangeable, not the phones themselves. The incompatible ecosystems…

> Did your app purchases form the Google Play Store automatically transfer to your Apple App store Since every app that I pay to use that has an Android version is subscription based, yes. > and did your photos off your Google drive transfer to your iCloud, or vice-versa? Since I can download the Google Drive app on my iPhone and it shows up right next to iCloud Drive on the Files app and in File dialogs. Yes. As far…

>As far as photos from iCloud to Google, just download Google Photos on your iPhone and sync your photos.

That's not a direct transfer, it's a workaround which requires you to have free storage on your phone greater than the amount of photos you have.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#718
post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The USA is still doing pretty good but the UK and the EU are staunchly anti privacy. They're pretty good on consumer privacy but don't believe that privacy from the government should exist.

This feels pretty opposite to me. I mean sure UK is pretty privacy hostile in practice (CCTVs everywhere), but what does the US have for companies surveillance of people? How much of that data is legal for governments to buy? Maybe the US gov isn't spying on citizens, but how many 5-eyes partners are definitely sending data to them in proxy (by careful surveillance design)? I guess my question boils down to what spec…

Companies can't arrest me and throw me in jail.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#719
post #475
post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

To me, there is one big argument for privacy: You never know what your govewrnment will change into in the next few years. This basic argument for encryption is often raised in combination with countries which we already consider non-free. But, frankly, I have finally learned the true meaning of this message during COVID times. I would never have expected society deteriorating into this fear/hate driven, media induce…

Yep, this just gives them the tools when they go full fascist. For example the USA had a recent coup attempt, and that same person attempting the coup will be running again for president and there is a non-zero chance that he will win. He has openly stated that he wanted to "reform" the government and install only loyalists, that is the type of regime you don't want to have instant access to all communications.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#720
post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that why we pay gov agents to hang out in the seedy parts of the web? If CP consumers are able to find each other with relative ease, I'm sure agents impersonating them can find them too. Then it's up to them to locate them, likely by exploiting an opsec failure along the way. I see no reason the give the gov eyes on everything when they have a perfectly valid route to investigations.

I'll also play Devil's advocate even though I'm a very vocal advocate for data privacy in real life. These government agents are people as well, and as people they'll suffer to wade through the dark corners of the web to locate a minuscule part of all the CP data available worldwide. These people will inevitably require mental care to deal with the trauma of looking at GiBs and GiBs of small kids being raped, that's…

The very, very large majority of child abuse happens at schools, half by other children, half by staff. Especially in phys ed/sports. Think about this: this is so prevalent you will probably remember cases of this yourself. Of course, government has made sure there is absolutely nothing child services or police can do about teacher abuse, and nothing can be done at all about teacher (or school) responsibility when they fail to protect children during school (despite the law saying they are responsible). The only thing child services can do is effectively attacking the child (using violence to demand the child be "treated"). And while the police technically can go after the perpetrator, they don't need any proof to go after the child (which "solves" the problem), but they need proof to go after the perpetrator ...

The whole system around children is setup to protect government against children, FIRST. This will not change with surveillance, in fact it will be made a lot worse, and this is a far bigger problem than CP.

So if people claim that all government people are "good people", who are "just trying to help". The problem is the result. The real question is what happens to those children, to the victims, the rest doesn't matter.

To some extent that's actually true. Most teachers that eventually get convicted for ... students aren't pedophiles. They're people with no previous offences, who really did start their job to teach, who at some point lose their self control when dealing with children, because it's so easy. The problem with it being so easy, which leads to the sad observation that they tend to be responsible for a LOT of children, and therefore make a lot of victims before anything is done, because the system is set up to protect them. The current record is a German director of child services, who sexually abused over 30000 children. You might ask how you can even do that, that's almost one child per day, for a decade. The sad answer to that is that he had a large team around him. Teachers, in more normal cases are accused of abusing between 5 and 10 children.

And the outcomes ...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8225538/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30034577

These people know this. They go through the web merely to punish and use violence against society to force what they consider decency standards. The problem is, they do not help these children, they usually only damage them (which leads to constant embarrassments. FBI 2 years ago proudly announced they had done a razzia, and "saved" 43 children from prostitution. Before 2 weeks passed 41 out of 43 of them had run away, with the very large majority very likely going back to prostitution). They just throw them into the child services system which destroys these children's lives far more than even actual abuse does. And, of course, mostly they were not abused but protected by their parents, and were far safer at home. And even that's ignoring that this is government: a significant fraction will get deported if they don't run away.

And this is ignoring the "accidental" studies, which follow this pattern: someone wants to make a career and needs, effectively, to find a large amount of children abused, to get attention. These can't be actually abused because of how humans work: abused children ... abuse others themselves, damage themselves, do drugs, act in criminal ways, ... So nobody in the system wants those, at best they are very problematic children. What these individuals need to do is convince authorities that a large cohort of normal (very young) children are in fact abused, and "need help". Mostly, of course, they don't tire themselves, and do this by simply lying, then ripping the child from their family, but for example there's the "on this anatomically correct doll" scandal.

The "plus" side of this is that we have plenty of evidence of the effect of child services ABSENT earlier abuse or problems in the child's life. And the evidence is damning. These children don't study. They suicide 10x more than normal children. They essentially do not, at all, continue studies after high school, and a high percentage doesn't finish high school

I would like to point these are studies, but this is extremely visible to people working in the field. The help government provides doesn't help children. They know this, yet they keep working in this system. This is, obviously, not moral.

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