What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line • Hacker News Board

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#41

Post by victork2 » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:06 PM UTC

robgough wrote: post #36

victork2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a bold statement. "hate", really? I personally don't like their posts on HN, I don't even bother reading them anymore. The first few I read where totally devoid of any kind of useful information for me and for most people that are a little bit technical. For the non-technical posts they are merely interesting like "Look at our desks", I found them to be the equivalent of feminine magazine articles for ge…

There's disagree-ing, and then there's talking in circles. As you point out - if they're being voted up, then surely they have a place. I'm just tired of seeing the "is this relevant" discussion on every single one. I find it no different than having someone go "by a Windows PC" on every Apple post, and vice versa. I agree hate is a strong word, and I used it only a short-hand description of what I meant. I'm not ove…

I get you. But here's the catch, and that's also valid for HN: Is crowd validation always the best measurement of the quality of an article? I agree there are a lot of running in circle conversations on HN. Like "Apache is slow, use Node.js", or its contrary "Node.js is bad, use {insert something else}". On HN there's a great deal of know-it-all attitude and most of the posts could be summarized by "Your choices of X is stupid, I chose Y and it's better, therefore, ' Why X is bad and you should use Y' blog posts ".

Anyway, 37signals could be the Kim Kardashian of Software Engineering, very popular and very successful, lots of people following the Gossip. Popularity does not imply quality, that's why civil disagree-ing is useful, we need safe guardians of the quality, even if they seem obnoxious when they criticize what we like.

PS: 37signals is NOT, in my opinion, the Kim Kardashian of Software Engineering.

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#42

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:08 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #31

mbesto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I believe what he is saying is that he doesn't necessarily care that opinions are varied, but rather that the essence of the community and HN's meritocracy is preserved. SvN/37signals shouldn't ever ask anyone to up/downvote anything, that's for you decide. ps- you can't downvote articles anyway

Ps, you can downvote if you have enough karma.

[deleted]

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#43

Post by DanielBMarkham » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:10 PM UTC

So it's a post on the front page of HN about how much it doesn't matter about being on the front page of HN? I love meta and recursion, but that's a little too meta even for me.

I don't have anything against the guys at 37Signals. Seems like they are doing some cool stuff. They have set themselves up as being awesome as part of their marketing strategy. While sales from HN hits probably don't amount to anything, I can't help but think that being on here is a big part of their portraying themselves as thought leaders.

I've been on the front page of HN a lot -- and I know a lot of other HNers here have also. I enjoy the feedback from the community, which to me is more valuable than anything else. So while being here is not some kind of master plan for business world domination, it's not like it's worthless either.

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#44

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:20 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #43

So it's a post on the front page of HN about how much it doesn't matter about being on the front page of HN? I love meta and recursion, but that's a little too meta even for me. I don't have anything against the guys at 37Signals. Seems like they are doing some cool stuff. They have set themselves up as being awesome as part of their marketing strategy. While sales from HN hits probably don't amount to anything, I ca…

I agree. But what if they made 300K/month off HN, would they be asking HN to upvote posts regardless of merit? The post seems to be a little sour grapey to me but I don't think it's a big deal anyway. Just one more story to ignore on HN's front page.

But I personally find their posts(and many others on HN) lacking in objectiveness and follow the below trend:

1) Find something (eg. sharpening pencils), that most companies/people do.

2) Write an article about how a policy of not doing that immensely helped their company. (save time not sharpening pencils and make a million bucks). "Sharpening Pencils Considered Harmful"

3) Make it sound absolute and generalize it(no company should do this and if they do, they're bureaucratic fools). This may not be explicitly stated, but it's implied.

4) Rake in page views

Then it hits front page of HN(surprising how their posts get immediately on FP, but I don't think it's foul play, maybe it's their Twitter followers?).

Then the inevitable follow up HN comments/blog posts come along "Why 37 Signals is wrong about Pencil Sharpening and how it can work/worked for me/us and we made millions Sharpening Pencils". Full of noise, flamebait comments, back and forth opinionated arguments and even personal attacks that are sometimes totally worthless since the whole argument is very subjective to individual circumstances.

Navigating through this morass for finding the 1% of posts that are actually insightful is an exercise in frustration and usually a waste of time. The big risk is that you'll find a comment which you vehemently disagree with and fall prey to spending ten precious minutes composing a reply ("Look Mom! Somebody is wrong on the internet!") which will lead to a comment tree of arguments.

For reference, look at this very discussion, it will be very similar to what I just stated.

This is repeated ad nauseum on here, not just by 37 Signals but by many other posts. I've slowly learned to ignore the noise generated by this but not always successfully. It's like chewing gum for your brain except you can easily get sucked into a wasteful time sink.

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#45

Post by hox » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:28 PM UTC

blasterford wrote: post #39

robgough wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I like their posts, and it certainly doesn't bother me when they reach the front page of HN. The only thing I'm tired of is all the predictable hate that goes their way. In fact, I find it a little petty and embarrassing for HN.

I think the dislike is warranted personally. The amount of exposure they get is extremely out of proportion to what they are and do. They do have it down to a fine art. Even this blog post is designed to get people talking about them - which it's succeeded in doing. They created ruby on rails, which a few people use, and they make a few webapps. They're not a startup. They give (IMHO) fairly poor startup advice, most…

Has Hacker News been reduced to postings that are relevant to startups?

I believe a lot of what they have to say is at least interesting to the hacker crowd at large, and as such, they have a place.

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#46

Post by ThinkinSoul » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:33 PM UTC

I like it. 37Signals has made a point throughout the years to speak their mind.

The MUCH BETTER news is that HN is not an easily manipulated marketing tool, thus its content stays relevant, rather than "optimized" for sales.

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#47

Post by john_flintstone » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:34 PM UTC

bullseye wrote: post #4

Upvote us, downvote us, ignore us – I don’t care I think this is a good attitude to have, but I have to point out that obviously it matters a little. Otherwise, this post wouldn't exist.

I think you misunderstand them. They're poking HN with a stick, just to get a rise out of you. As in: "these guys think they matter, but they really don't, not to us." It's a little petty and mean, but I have a similar pettiness and meanness in me, so I kind of get it.

As to the response to their response, well, nobody likes being ignored or perceived as insignificant, especially those with large egos, and there are a lot of large egos here on HN.

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#48

Post by john_flintstone » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:37 PM UTC

blasterford wrote: post #39

robgough wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I like their posts, and it certainly doesn't bother me when they reach the front page of HN. The only thing I'm tired of is all the predictable hate that goes their way. In fact, I find it a little petty and embarrassing for HN.

I think the dislike is warranted personally. The amount of exposure they get is extremely out of proportion to what they are and do. They do have it down to a fine art. Even this blog post is designed to get people talking about them - which it's succeeded in doing. They created ruby on rails, which a few people use, and they make a few webapps. They're not a startup. They give (IMHO) fairly poor startup advice, most…

>They created ruby on rails, which a few people use

A few people? Really? Now that's just petty.

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#49

Post by blasterford » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:38 PM UTC

john_flintstone wrote: post #48

blasterford wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the dislike is warranted personally. The amount of exposure they get is extremely out of proportion to what they are and do. They do have it down to a fine art. Even this blog post is designed to get people talking about them - which it's succeeded in doing. They created ruby on rails, which a few people use, and they make a few webapps. They're not a startup. They give (IMHO) fairly poor startup advice, most…

>They created ruby on rails, which a few people use A few people? Really? Now that's just petty.

Compared to java, javascript, c, php etc?

Re: What being on the front page of Hacker News does for our bottom line

#50

Post by pg » Thu, Mar 08, 2012, 5:41 PM UTC

It's misleading to focus only on the direct benefits. The benefits of PR are always mostly indirect.

For example, Y Combinator makes zero direct revenue from hosting HN. But I would feel pretty dishonest if I were to claim on that account that it has no effect on our bottom line.