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Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#501

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

vbo wrote: post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

> The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim

Traditionally, couldn't they with texts? And with all the major social media players?

Isn't stuff like Signal they can't track relatively new and getting outlawed in many places?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#502

Post by mrweasel »

There was an interview with the CEO of Signal and some UK conservative politician[1]. It's a pretty infuriating interview, as both parties try to debate two complete separate issues. Meredith Whittaker of Signal, rightfully tries to debate the issues with breaking encryption and it's ramification, but the politician has that sorted. See they don't want to break the encryption, they want the apps to pick up the messages BEFORE encryption and side channel them to some government agency, at least that's my understanding. They want on device access to the message, which the app have, they just also want that information searched, indexed and filtered and sent to the police.

It's sad that these politicians don't see the problem... Well either don't see or understand, or they full well understand and that's the point, they're just doing a poor job of explaining why.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--bVV_eQR0

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#503

Post by detourdog »

graypegg wrote: post #430
detourdog wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. There are people in the world that don't want to pry into other's lives. Collecting un-needed data on people is Nixonian. I think Apple managed to understand and attract those types of customers. I find a generational disconnect between the 70's computer users and the user in the 00's.

I don’t think it’s possible for a company as big as Apple to act solely on principle. We’re just lucky the profit motive aligned with consumer privacy for once. Untainted (without ML-generated content) human communication is becoming more and more scarce. It’s only a matter of time before they take advantage of that. They'll forbid any app using ML generated content from providing iMessage extensions, or possibly it’…

I don’t think it’s possible for a company as big as Apple to act solely on principle.

I agree but think that Apple is the exception that proves the rule. Its origin story is as good as any Shakespeare.

The second act of Apple started small and focused and re-built itself while keeping the Wall Street mind set at a distance. I think your sentiment misses the fact that Apple doesn't really need Wall Street. Their stock can do whatever it wants the lower it goes the more they can buy. Why would Apple lower their standards?

On their conference calls they always talk about reaching cash neutrality as their goal. I never really understand what that looks like

Untainted (without ML-generated content) human communication is becoming more and more scarce. It’s only a matter of time before they take advantage of that.

I'm not sure if I understand this comment. Apple's size relative to other nation's GDP enables them to hire real humans at an amazing scale. This different than a company that doesn't have a culture of support built-in already. They also have the advantage that many countries would partner with them to raise their own GDP.

I think their approach is to grow the AI to help the existing workforce scale. Get more work done using fewer live bodies.

They'll forbid any app using ML generated content from providing iMessage extensions, or possibly it’ll receive a warning mark in iMessage when sent. Could also work with content pasted from those apps. Some sort of “provenance check”. They’ll pitch it as a consumer privacy thing, I promise.

I hope so that is why I'm Apple customer. I also think you are misreading the times. Apple is about to hand over a lot of authority to the customers.

There is very much a motivation to access massive amounts of user data, especially when you control the OS that would be the gate keeper to that data, as well as how the “choice” is presented to the end user.

Don't project your ambitions on others.

I do believe that Apple's ability to maintain their performance is mystifying and wonder how long it will last.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#504

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

dainiusse wrote: post #463

How does apple work in russia then?

It just ignores this part of local legislation, like everyone else. The government tries to pressure companies to provide encryption keys, but this is unfeasible as it doesn't have big enough leverage, especially now, when hostile international relations shield foreign companies from legal threats. So the only thing they can do is an internet block, but most users do have some kind of vpn installed already to circumvent such obstacles. It also weakens government negotiations position, because one you use the nuclear option, there is no more ways to threaten the company.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#505

Post by imchillyb »

rfrey wrote: post #496
mihaaly wrote: post #123

I wonder why the UK legislators not preparing a new regulation mandating every keys to every door and safe having a bypass mechanism for government officials. Behind every door and every locked place there could be child pornography and illicit materials hidden!! Every house, every hotel safe are suspects! Criminal oversight, criminal oversight! (and if they think their reasoning for backdoors into online chat and co…

Given the possibility of invisible and essentially free screening of private conversations, the analogy is probably more "install cameras in every home that only the government can access". But we promise, they'll be turned off most of the time.

School boards already successfully do this with 'student laptops' also known as in-home monitoring devices that cannot be switched off.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#506

Post by hiatus »

vbo wrote: post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

It's crazy that we allow this at all. The government can't observe clandestine conversations that occur in person, does that mean they can mandate us to carry a government recording device? That people don't equally balk at requests to encumber encryption is baffling.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#507

Post by wmf »

pshirshov wrote: post #150
inopinatus wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda apropos, I’ve used international data roaming in mainland China and was (initially) astonished to find it totally bypassed the GFW and I could run IPsec and SSH unencumbered, none of the unabashed MITM fuckery I saw from using strong crypto over Chinese hotel wifi for more than a couple of seconds. That was a few years ago, I don’t know where their interception regime is at today, but it was a reminder that pro…

LTE and 5G standards allow end-to-end encryption of the roaming traffic. So, it's by design. If your operator chooses to enable e2e (and usually they do), there would be just two options: block your traffic entirely or let it pass as it is.

What's the end in this case?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#508

Post by smoldesu »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #103
defrost wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest that sounds like both an idealised slogan and a sophism empty of logic. Can you expand upon how the advancements in western society since (say) WWII have been neccesarily dependant upon privacy?

> how the advancements in western society since (say) WWII have been neccesarily dependant upon privacy? Alan Turing. Hell, Tim Cook, a gay man who grew up in Alabama. Neither would have survived childhood with their personalities intact had their governments had the access No. 10 Downing demands. Privacy preserves society’s margins. The margins, by definition, are where change—growth—is nurtured.

1. You cannot compare Cook to Turing with a straight face, even in terms of their sexuality situation.

2. Privacy is about as personal of a fight to Cook as shareholder obligations are, and only one of them gets him removed if he neglects it.

3. It's pretty fucking stupid to suggest the UK would do the same thing to Turing today if they had the data. You may recall that there are now laws in both the UK and, yes, Alabama since 2009, that render this a hate crime and deter it properly. It's the lamest possible excuse to support corporate power.

Ultimately Tim Cook will say whatever gets investors horny. If you're dumb enough to factor his sexuality in to your trust quotient, you deserve to be XKeyscored.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#509

Post by barnabee »

defrost wrote: post #61
barnabee wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is privacy a fundamental right within a society but it is fundamentally necessary to the advancement, and thus long term survival, of any society.

To be honest that sounds like both an idealised slogan and a sophism empty of logic. Can you expand upon how the advancements in western society since (say) WWII have been neccesarily dependant upon privacy?

Advancements depend on the ability to change and often break the rules and to protest injustice.

With no privacy there’s no civil disobedience and no advancement.

Without privacy there’s no resistance to Putin’s regime, or to prohibition (of abortion, homosexuality, alcohol, drugs, …).

Privacy is essential.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#510

Post by vbo »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #501
vbo wrote: post #419

I feel we've been collectively losing the battle to keep our conversations private. The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim. And perhaps that's true to some extent. But since most people believe the battle is lost, moreso that this has always been the status quo, then any batt…

> The anti-encryption laws are likely vocally opposed only by a minority, while the majority believes they had no privacy to begin with and governments can read your messages at a whim Traditionally, couldn't they with texts? And with all the major social media players? Isn't stuff like Signal they can't track relatively new and getting outlawed in many places?

They could and they did, the problem is they’re now attempting to get the same access to encrypted communications by outlawing privacy, essentially saying they need to get rid of your freedom to speak privately for our greater good.
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