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Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

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Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#381

Post by mynameisvlad »

submeta wrote: post #376

An interesting narative, but there are alternative perspectives to consider as well. It's not necessarily a matter of whether or not the UK needs Apple to break their encryption. In fact, they may not need to do so at all. Companies like certain Israel-based firms specialize in selling a myriad of cyber tools, often at quite reasonable prices, that can potentially bypass the need for direct encryption breaking. It of…

This isn’t about targeted attacks, though. This is about a blanket bill to monitor everyone’s communications.

The tools you mention still generally require either physical access to the device, or are in some way targeted. You’ll likely never be able to stop these, but a blanket communication encryption ban both serves an entirely different purpose and can much more easily be stopped.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#382

Post by kingrazor »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #326
kingrazor wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never really understood what people mean by this. For me, iMessage is indistinguishable from SMS, except for the color of the messages, and the fact that I can use iMessage over WiFi.

Being able to use it without a mobile network seems pretty distinguishable. As well as not being subject to international charges. And then of course the vastly higher fidelity of pictures and video sent via iMessage.

It's easy for me to forget how different my circumstances are from most other people. I'm far more likely to be in a place where I have no WiFi than a place where I have no cell service. And I don't personally know anyone outside the US, so I don't send international messages. I guess I've never paid enough attention to the fidelity of pictures I'm sent or am sending over SMS to notice a quality difference.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#383

Post by bpicolo »

zarzavat wrote: post #292
paxys wrote: post #207

The same Apple that lets the CCP operate its entire App Store in China? It's easy to criticize a government when you know there will be no retaliation. To judge a company's true stance on such issues see how they behave when there's a prospect of real financial loss.

The UK and China are not comparable. China is the worlds most populous country (for now). The UK has a population of under 70m. China is a totalitarian regime where even an imperfect freedom is preferable to no freedom at all. The UK is a democratic country which should be upholding the right to privacy. If Apple weakens crypto for the UK, it affects people in other countries as well. iMessage is not exactly popular…

Just an interesting note I learned recently - it’s estimated that India’s population overtook China’s this year (within the last couple of months)

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#384

Post by vel0city »

kingrazor wrote: post #263
Larrikin wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because SMS is simply inferior to Whatsapp, Messenger, Instagram, Line, kakaotalk, Snapchat, Signal, etc unless you own an iPhone. All of them are cross platform and aren't intentionally broken for people who don't have or use iMessage. I personally avoid giving out my phone number as much as possible as all the other platforms have much better tools for communication, blocking, media, etc.

I've never really understood what people mean by this. For me, iMessage is indistinguishable from SMS, except for the color of the messages, and the fact that I can use iMessage over WiFi.

Using it over WiFi is big feature alone for a lot of people who are often in spaces with good WiFi but poor cellular reception. Some carriers support SMS over WiFi in the same way they do "WiFi calling" which can alleviate that.

The other major feature I see for other messengers over SMS/MMS is much larger attachment sizes. It can be challenging sending an MMS with attachments >1MB. Meanwhile, I can send a 100MB file/video or an 8MB photo over Signal. WhatsApp allows for 16MB attachments. Sending a quick video in-line with the chat thread in MMS is miserable and gives an incredibly trash quality video while most other chat apps you can stick a decent quality 30 seconds or so video without any issue. Photos sent over MMS are usually junk while one could get a decent 4x6+ print off an 8MB photo.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#386

Post by MichaelZuo »

smoldesu wrote: post #222
tifik wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because they are asked to/legally required. I was questioning incentives to hand over information on their own accord, just because they can.

All of these are their own accord. That's even what OP's article is about - if Apple is legally required to break their encryption in the EU, then they will discontinue their product. Let's not pretend this is a privacy-motivated decision. Where Apple doesn't have negotiating power (eg. China) they have been forced to compromise user safety and privacy[0]. We live in a post XKeyscore world, pretending like this doesn…

Huh? Isn't this story about the possibility of the UK government legally requiring Apple to do something?

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#387

Post by vel0city »

crottypeter wrote: post #354
kingrazor wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never really understood what people mean by this. For me, iMessage is indistinguishable from SMS, except for the color of the messages, and the fact that I can use iMessage over WiFi.

Group messages. If I send an SMS message to a group of people, they all see a message from me. They don't know who else got it. And if they reply, they reply only to me. Is your experience different? WhatsApp (and I think iMessage) allow me to create a group with a name/purpose and send messages to the group and receive replies to the whole group. (P.S. I went from dumb-phones to Android and have limited exposure to…

I imagine your experience of sending a message to multiple people and it not making a "group message" was your older dumb phones weren't switching to MMS, it was keeping it as pure SMS. In the SMS world, there is one recipient. In MMS, it's like an email, you can list a lot (100+ in some cases) of receipts and they can all see the list.

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#388

Post by dtech »

meling wrote: post #294
dtech wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMS is cheap now but wasn't universally when Whatsapp gained critical mass. Nowadays it's mostly about convenience and features compared to SMS, and iPhone has a much smaller marker share in Europe so iMessage isn't a thing.

I beg to differ. iMessage is definitely quite common in Europe as well.

iPhone has like a 33% market share so I wouldn't call it common if you can't reach 2 out of 3 people on it at least.

In contrast, in many European countries Whatsapp has 90%+ penetration [1]. Even where it's relatively unused it's more common than iMessage.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1311229/whatsapp-usage-m...

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#389

Post by joshuaissac »

vxNsr wrote: post #311
joshuaissac wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WhatsApp is used by 78% of the users in the UK, and iMessage is used by 25%. https://www.statista.com/forecasts/997945/most-used-messenge... (non-free link)

But who is that 25%? iPhone users have money. I’m sure there is some significant overlap between iMessage and WhatsApp users (I know I and everyone I know use(s) both). But if you threaten politicians with losing their blue bubbles they’re gonna fall in line.

> But if you threaten politicians with losing their blue bubbles they’re gonna fall in line.

This is not a thing outside the United States, and I doubt that most British politicians are even aware of 'blue bubbles'.

For example, the recent controversy regarding the release of Covid-related government communications was centred on WhatsApp, with no reference to other platforms like iMessage.

https://news.sky.com/story/politicians-are-drawn-to-whatsapp...

Re: Apple says it'll remove iMessage and FaceTime in UK rather than break encryption

#390

Post by justapassenger »

obituary_latte wrote: post #2

Stuff like this is why I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm happy to pay a premium and be locked into their walled garden for some things if it means supporting a company that has the power to shift policy in favor of human rights (privacy in this case).

You must love Meta then, who refused to compromise to enter China (and boy, they tried). While Apple happily shares data with Chinese government to make billions.
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